So you got a new fish tank Newbie

[Recife]

Fish only tank?

Fish only tank?

Hi again Tom, is there a section in Reef Central dedicated to fish only tanks?

I'm interested in knowing what is the ideal setup. Since my tank doesn't have an overflow or sump, but just a canister filter, I'm wondering if I can get away with a hang on skimmer and no sump? In that case, what would I do for water flow?
Are there special lighting requirements if I put live rock in it? And should I go for a deep sand bed too?

The thing is I realized I will have to stretch my budget too much to make my 125gl reef ready and having a fish only tank will let me have more fish.

Thanks!

 

[Contrail30]

Good day all. Just thought I would ask a question here because I can never seem to get the search feature to work. It is a question about the dsb verse crushed coral. The LFS mentioned something I haven't read yet or forgot. I am about to purchase a 55 gallon to start my first real reef tank. In the setup equipment I talked to them about to try to get prices they mentioned 40lbs of crushed coral, so being the new guy I said I did not want the crushed coal I was going to use sand. The reply I got was The crushed coral helps to buffer the pH, the sand won't do anything for it and I would have to add extra supplements. Basied on what I have read in this thread the pH buffering doesn't compair to the bennefit of the biological filter in the DSB. Is my thinking correct?

This thread is great. Just wish I would have started reading it 2.5 years ago at the start.

Thanks
Bryan

 

[Acreagedad]

Yea, you're right that this thread is great. My only complaint is that knowing Tom caused me to drop my beer drinking habit, or it could've been this reef hobby. He has that effect on people!

Carlito

 

[reverendmaynard]

If you use aragonite sand, you'll get the same buffering effect as CC.

Of course, that buffering effect is little to nothing, because the CC or sand wont dissolve unless the PH falls to like 7.8 or so. At that point, you're already in trouble.

If you use silica sand, like most play sand from HD and others, you won't get the buffering effect, but, if you monitor and keep your PH at or around normal SW (8.2 or so), you'll never see a difference. There might be concerns about the infauna (silica sand is much more jagged than aragonite and is theorized to be bad for sand sifters), but buffering iis not worth being concerned about, IMO.

 

[WaterKeeper]

First off

Hi Bryan
<img src="/images/welcome.gif" width="500" height="62"><br><b><i><big><big>To Reef Central</b></i></big></big>

Now then Recife indeed we do have a Fish Only & Aggresive Tank Forum. The reason those two are grouped that way is because a lot of sort after fish, like angels and butterflies, do not work and play well with corals and other inverts. I know the title of the forum scares some people off as they think it is mainly about keeping Barricudas and Great Whites.

Using a HOB skimmer is pushing the limit on a 125 but it will do in a pinch. The canister can be used to maintain flow as can be done using a few well placed power heads. Closed loop recirculation is also an option.

For a FO tank lighting is not a major concern. Coralline algae is not very demanding but it does better with some 03 actinic as that provides spectral output important to photosynthesis. With a 125 I would suggest using around 300 watts of total lighting as a minimum and later on you can always increase it.

A common misconception is that an FO tank doesn't need LR or a DSB. Indeed tanks are kept using only a UGF or Wet/Dry. Overtime however nitrates build up and up unless you do frequent large water changes. Using LR and a DSB will solve that problem. It should be noted that FO tanks often have a higher waste load placed on them than a full blown reef as the fish population is usually higher.

Back to you, Bryan,

The Good Reverend has pretty much answered why the LFS might say that about the sand. They are thinking silica. I have my own (and yet unproven) theory on sand buffering by aragonite sands. My own feeling it is not the carbon dioxide in the bed that dissolves the sand. A good DSB has areas that become anaerobic and this produces what are know as volatile organic acids (VOA). These acids, of which acetic (vinegar) is a member, are what a aragonite bed buffers against. As Randy will explain in his discussions, if calcium acetate is formed it is reduced to carbon dioxide and calcium carbonate (bicarbonate) by bacterial action thus conserving alkalinity. In a silica bed this just can't happen and, although bacteria still convert the acetic acid to carbon dioxide they use up alkalinity in the process. I know this is a bit heavy for my Newbie Threads but-

It will give you Newbies something to ponder over the weekend besides what beer Carlito drinks!

P.S. One more thing. CC is just too course a texture for a proper DSB. You want a much finer sand, aragonite or silica.

:beer:

 

[reverendmaynard]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6709653#post6709653 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper

The Good Reverend has pretty much answered why the LFS might say that about the sand. They are thinking silica. I have my own (and yet unproven) theory on sand buffering by aragonite sands. My own feeling it is not the carbon dioxide in the bed that dissolves the sand. A good DSB has areas that become anaerobic and this produces what are know as volatile organic acids (VOA). These acids, of which acetic (vinegar) is a member, are what a aragonite bed buffers against. As Randy will explain in his discussions, if calcium acetate is formed it is reduced to carbon dioxide and calcium carbonate (bicarbonate) by bacterial action thus conserving alkalinity. In a silica bed this just can't happen and, although bacteria still convert the acetic acid to carbon dioxide they use up alkalinity in the process.

Very interesting WK. I hadn't considered, or heard mentioned, the localized buffering aspect. Could be another reason that silica is bad for the infauna (I imagine that buffering by alkalinity in the water would be slower than by dissolving calcite in the depths of a send bed, no?) Another good reason to use aragonite, if you can afford it (it takes a lot of baking soda to make up the cost difference between silica sand and aragonite).

Are these discussions of Randy's ongoing, or a future publication?

 

[WaterKeeper]

Rev,

Randy has made mention of it several times. This Article has the chemistry associated with the use of vinegar with KW.

The big thing here is not reaction speed. Dissolved alkalinity will react faster than the substrate but that the substrate contains so much more buffering ability than the limited amount of alkalinity in the water column.

 

[reverendmaynard]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6710196#post6710196 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WaterKeeper
Rev,

Randy has made mention of it several times. This Article has the chemistry associated with the use of vinegar with KW.

The big thing here is not reaction speed. Dissolved alkalinity will react faster than the substrate but that the substrate contains so much more buffering ability than the limited amount of alkalinity in the water column.

Yeah, I knew about the chemistry of vinegar, but didn't realize that the reactions that occur in the depths of the dsb would create a localized acidic environment.

I think that's what I was getting at. IOW, in the depths of the dsb, where flow is necessarily slow enough to have little to no oxygen, there may not be enough alkalinity available in the water to buffer the acidic bi-products of denitrification.

 

[dastratt]

Mr. WK -- I have a question about lids on tanks.

I always used those glass lids that come with the AGA tanks, for FO and FOWLR and have had one on my reef tank. But I see that many others have open tops or egg crate. My wife just made me a nice egg crate top for my tank. Now I am adding top off water like crazy!

Are those glass lids considered a bad idea for reef tanks? There's some loss in light, but the egg crate seems to block some light also.

 

[frank10]

What would be a good set of crabs, snails, and such for a cleaning crew on a 75 gallon tank? is there some ratio like 0.5 blue legged hermit crabs per gallon?

 

[Sprockett]

New to this forum and to be honest there's so much information here that it's not the fish that are swimming but my head, I read WaterKeepers whole article on lighting which was very good and informative. I dug through this one and I'm trying to absorb it all...

Many years ago before my wife and I had kids, we had a nice 55g SW tank, we really enjoyed it but with kids we simply lost the time to keep it up and I sold off the fish to a friend and sold the tank (wish I still had it actually)...

So now many years later my Youngest got a present in the form of an Eclipse 12 system, she and I decided that we would team up and setup a small SW tank, I was thinking "How hard could it be, I did the big one, it had clowns and anenome's and did really well for the 1-1/2 years we had it"....

Well things have changed quite a bit since then, things are so much more technical now that to be honest it's a little daunting starting back up.

Our 'goal' is to have some various coral, some clowns and a cleaner crew, that's still quite a ways off. So before I ask a number of questions here is our current setup and state:

- I replaced the stock light with a 32W sunpaq retro kit
- We are using the built in filter and Bio-Wheel
- We added an Aqua Clear 30 to create some flow in the tank.
- We've got about 1-1/2" of LS and a good stack of LR in there.
- 'DAD!' added a moonlight setup with blue LEDS.
- The lights are on a 14 on 10 moonlight timer right now (it looks sooo cool at night)

I think the most fun was selecting the LR, we even found a briwn worm in a little cave one rock had. By the time the water cleared he had moved, so we aren't sure if he made it or not but we are rooting for him!!!

It's been almost a week since we got all that done, I've monitored the stats every day.

The water temp is a constanst 76 (we bought a digital therm with a probe that we keep installed all the time)

Salinity is about 1.021
Ph is 8.2
Alk is 300
Nitrate is 20ppm
Nitrite is not measurable (we are using the dipsticks)
Amonia is not registering yet.

We bought a plastic container with a lid and are keeping mixed SW in there with a small head that's arrating the water and creating flow. This is our changing water. We've been using Distilled water as the source..

I'll try posting a pic later of the setup, but it does look really nice, but there are some things I still need guidance on....

1. Is there a good method to check O2 sat levels in the water? I can see some bubbles from the bio-wheel but I'm not sure how much saturation the tank is getting. I'd like to know that before I add anything at all to the tank.

2. Why would the nitrates be at 20PPM, shouldn't the amonia go up first?, then the nitrites THEN the nirtrates?

3. Is a 32W light enough for coral?, lighting is a tricky thing, there's not much room in the hood and we want to keep the slick look of the tank. However I have no fear of modding the thing

4. I've had a number of people tell me to remove the Bio-wheel and turn the little top part into a refugium. Honestly this doesn't make sense to me as the space is just big enough for a carbon filter and the wheel. Should I toss it?

5. I wish I would have figured out sumps before we got the dang thing together, It's actually sitting on my desk so water changes are going to be a pain. However I do have room under the extension for a sump or fuge, is it too late to add one? I got a good laugh when I ran the sump calculator and it said I only needed a 1.7 size sump. My thinking is that by adding more water and possibly a fuge I can increase our chances of long term success...

Great forum, if I can just soak in enough info we might even succeed...

Thanks

-Paul-

 

[reverendmaynard]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6710875#post6710875 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dastratt
Mr. WK -- I have a question about lids on tanks.

I always used those glass lids that come with the AGA tanks, for FO and FOWLR and have had one on my reef tank. But I see that many others have open tops or egg crate. My wife just made me a nice egg crate top for my tank. Now I am adding top off water like crazy!

Are those glass lids considered a bad idea for reef tanks? There's some loss in light, but the egg crate seems to block some light also.

There are a few reasons people don't use glass tops...

One commonly sited one is gas exchange. I personally feel this is bunk as they don't fit tight enough to really inhibit air flow to any great degree. Also, if you have an open sump and/or run a skimmer, there's much more gas exchange going on there then there will ever be at the surface of the display.

Another reason is the rate at which they get covered in salt creep. When you're running hot lights, like MHs or VHO, any sw that may splash or condense onto the tops evaporates very quickly, causing the tops to cloud up in days (some say minutes). Which leads to the next, and probably biggest reason...

Blockage of the light. Plain, perfectly clean glass blocks 20-30% of the light trying to pass through it (or so I've heard). Since the tops aren't going to stay clean very long, that number is increased even more. When you're talking about people who will spend $1000 or more to upgrade from t5 to MHs to get a 5% boost in lighting for their sps tank, you can see that their not going to put up with losing 30% or more of their light to glass tops. Egg crate also blocks some light, but turned in the right direction (don't remember which), it is actually supposed to help focus the light into the tank.

They also boost the heat retained in the tank from these uber light setups. Taking the tops off can mean the difference between needing a chiller or not.

So, if your running fish only with normal output lights, I'd leave the tops on. If your desire to avoid massive top off is greater than your desire to avoid any of these other listed problems, leave 'em on. Otherwise, ltake 'em off and start pouring!:lol:

 

[dastratt]

rm -- thanks

frank -- I've seen recommendations up to 1 critter per gal, I'm at maybe 1 per 2-3 gal. I keep some of the dwarf hermits but they do kill the snails (mine like ceriths) for their shells and some consider them not entirely reef friendly. Nessarius are good to get with a sand bed. Ceriths and astraea are good. I have a lot of nerites too. You could try 10-20 crabs and 20-30 snails, that wouldn't be too much. Read up on sea stars or cukes before buying, I've had LFS sell me "detritus eaters" that were not. Skunk cleaner shrimp and pepp shrimp act as scavengers, I love em. You'll need a flashlight to ever see the pepps though.

sprocket -- those test strips are notorius. Wish it were that easy.
Check out the nano forum and nano-reefs.com. People do crank up the lighting more than what you have for SPS corals, clams, anenomes, but they keep LPS and soft with PC lights. I see there are 70W MH lights out there. It'll get hot though I bet. Your temp and SG are below average.

 

[Sprockett]

Thanks Dasratt...

I just nudged the heater a bit more towards 79 (little steps)..

I have some SW mixed and I'll do a water change today and see if I can bring it up a bit and shoot for 1.023.

The lighting thing is the one area I find really frustrating because (and I know WaterKeepers going to get me on this one) it's so complicated and hard to really measure, wattage really doesn't mean much because there are so many other factors, what I would really like to see is a good rule of thumb chart... Or better yet a cheap meter for measuring output at the strata level. At least the Smartpaq stuff has the right 'kind' of lights in it

Regardless my current thinking is to just order another 36W retro doubling my output to 72, do some metalwork and cram the whole thing in the hood with a reflector, there should be room with a little work, then a shield and a micro fan to keep the heat down...

Our little "project" is starting to get expensive :eek1:

 

[Contrail30]

Thanks Waterkeeper. I will stick to my guns on this one. Just had to check though. He also threw me when he said only listen to him because listing to too many people would just confuse me. I guess I am not allowed to have my own opinions.

Bryan

 

[PatMayo]

I would not use the CC either only because it catches stuff too easily. I had a CC substrate on my 46 and always has zero nitrates, however I also feed very lightly and change water each week.

Regards,

Pat

 

[WaterKeeper]

Alex,

The eggcrate does block some light but not nearly as much as even a thin coating of salt. You almost need to clean the top about two or three times a day if you wish to keep a thin reflective layer of salt from forming.

If you don't use a sump then gas exchange does become a factor with most tanks. Carbon dioxide will settle in under the lid and push down pH. As the Rev pointed out this is not a problem for most tanks as they run sumps that facilitate gas exchange. If you do have continual low pH episodes on a covered tank, remove the top for awhile and see if it comes up. That will answer whether it is affecting water chemistry.

Frank,

As of late I have been persuaded that hermits are not the most desirable of clean-up crew members. The may eat more good sandbed critters than the tank can maintain. I now stick mainly to snails. I usually have 1 for every gallon or two of tank size. Search through <b><a href="http://reefkeeping.com" target="_blank">Reefkeeping Magazine</a></b> for some thoughts on what snails are best. I usually use a mix.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6711272#post6711272 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sprockett
Many years ago before my wife and I had kids, we had a nice 55g SW tank, we really enjoyed it but with kids we simply lost the time to keep it up and I sold off the fish to a friend and sold the tank (wish I still had it actually)...

Paul

Holy Smokes!!!! The idea is to sell the kids to get money for a bigger tank. Never sell your tank to have kids!!!


Wet test methods for oxygen don't work or use techniques that are dangerous in the hands of the non-chemist (i.e.The Winkler Method). That means using an electronic oxygen meter. New they are fairly expensive but you may find a used one being sold on e-Bay or elsewhere on the web. Not too many hobbyist seem to use one.

If you tank has cycled then ammonia and nitrite should be switching so fast to nitrate that you can no longer detect them. Use water changes to lower the nitrate on a small tank like that.

Do a little search on low light corals. Not all corals demand high levels. Most leathers can do fine under your 32 watts.

I don't know about using the bio-wheel area as a fuge but I'd remove the wheel and just use it for circulation. The wheel may be keeping your nitrates elevated.

Sump away. Many people have sumps larger than their display.

 

[House_64]

Thanks for the info.... very helpful

 

[Sprockett]

WaterKeeper...

Trust me more than once I've wondered what someone would pay for them!!!

Dropped the bio wheel this morning and we did a water change last night, Got the temp at 78.8 and am bringing the salinity up slowly so everything is looking good.

Started to see some brown algae on the sand so I know somethings happening at least, this morning the nitrates are down to about 10PPM and still no amonia that I could find. I'm going to take water sample down to the LFS and have them validate that I'm seeing the right thing.

I stopped by there yesterday and the lady who runs the shop was there, man was she a wealth of information!! (she reads all the forums too which impressed me). She took me all over the store and showed me all the different types of coral and shrooms I could support. Told me to stick with the 32W and enjoy the tank, she's getting all my business now, when someone takes the time to teach and share it's the best customer experience one could have.

I guess the worms made it after all, when the moonlights clicked on last night we counted about 15 of them crawling around, there is one in there I saw when I dropped the rock in, looked like an earthworm almost (a little larger), still haven't seen him since but there is life in there. My wife had the funniest look on her face when my daughter told her about all the cool worms in the tank... Priceless



Thanks for the info.

-Paul-

 

[WaterKeeper]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6717940#post6717940 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Sprockett
My wife had the funniest look on her face when my daughter told her about all the cool worms in the tank... Priceless

Ok Paul, then I guess you can keep the kid after all.