Something my LFS told me, BS or truth?

[Kizzy911]

Long story short-ish, this is my story.

I've started a 40gal breeder a couple of months ago 4-5 months ago, i've gotten fish from my LFS, lets just call this LFS (LFS1). i've also gotten a couple of fishes from another LFS (LFS2) and another (LFS3). In LFS1 i've gotten small yellow tang, a purple dotty back. LFS 2 i've gotten a filefish and 2 greens chromis, and LFS3 i've gotten 2 more green chromis' I bought my final fishes at LFS1 and it was 2 black/white clownfishes.
After adding them a week later i've gotten ICH. (yes i was new i didn't know what QT was atm) I've told my LFS1 because i got that fish from them and it started only when i got those fishes. He told me to use parashield (which i know it doesn't work) then he told me he uses that and that it should cure ich.
I decided to Qt the remaining fishes that are alive (3 green chromis', 1 firefish) Fishes that died from ich were: (yellow tang, 1 sapphire damsel, 2 clownfishes, and 1 purple dotty back.)
I QT'd there remaining fishes and added some cupramine copper treatment. They were doing fine for about a month, then i decided to purchase a large clarkia clownfish from someone on Craigslist and i decided to QT her. He was in the QT for about a month and a half, until i decided to get another clarkii so pair with her, a clarkia thats smaller but not too small. I purchased the other little clarkii from LFS1.
After getting this Clarkii (which looked fine at the store but i didn't really check for ICH*) after acclimating for an 45 minutes, i put him in my Qt (my QT is 10 gallons with copper treatments and pic piping) an hour later he was infested with ICH, and i mean 15+ white dots. Next day he didn't make it. Also, my LARGE clarkia that i bought form CG that was well off for a month 1/2 also died the next day.
After talking to the owner of LFS1 i've told him what happens and that he said this (something like this lol)
"To be honest, I wasn't going to refund you the clarkii, but you know, we need to talk about your situation and your problem"
"This usually doesn't happen with our fishes, and theres something wrong with your tank."
"He asked me about my QT and that if i added bacteria?"
He mentioned that, that's the problem right there, that the fishes need bacteria or they're automatically basically dead. Disregarding the fact that it doesn't solve the fact that the fishes still had ICH.
" he went on about, adding bacteria and having a piece of live rock, and feeding the QT as if there were fishes in there."

I've told him over and over that the water from my QT never transferred from my Main 40b tank, so it was impossible to get ich, also i told him i've been running copper on the QT so it was impossible to get ICH.

What are your thoughts? I know to some point he's right about some things, but it still doesn't make sense.
Also lastly, to mention that when i first told him, he mentioned that it was probably from them because they treat with copper/prazi-pro and sometimes it gets in their gils and it doesn't have time to be treated.

 

[rffanat1c]

First thing, was your QT cycled? If it was not cycled and you were not doing water changes, your fish are dying from ammonia poisoning. You either have to cycle your QT or do daily water changes to keep water quality up. A lot of people just use a couple of foam sponges in the QT and let it cycle.

It is possible that the disease you are dealing with isn't ich. It could be brook, marine velvet, or something else fast acting. If your water quality is poor then this is prime conditions for disease to take hold of a fish's immune system. Also copper levels are hard to maintain when treating ich, please look into the Tank Transfer Method (TTM).

He is right about having to have bacteria in your tank if you don't do daily water changes. Without the bacteria or water changes, ammonia builds up and is toxic. I wouldn't recommend live rock as it sucks up copper and makes it hard to maintain the levels. He is also right about having to "ghost feed" your tank with no fish. This will keep a cycle going in any tank that does not have fish in it and is meant to be setup long term.

While it is not recommend, I have not quarantined anything in my current tank. I have 9 fish and several inverts. I know ICH is present in the tank, but stress is low, water quality is excellent, and they are fed well. (There are plenty threads debating this subject but it works for me. You have to decide what you want to do.) It is a gamble for me, but has worked the last 1.5 years.

 

[CStrickland]

+1
Also, which part were you thinking was bs?
Tanks do need bacteria to process ammonia, but you don't necessarily have to buy it. Like poster above said it can come from your DT.
I'm a little fuzzy about your qt over all but the part about not getting water from the DT in it sounds like you might be mixed up. The fish carry ich too unless you follow the cupramine instructions to the letter, all the testing and everything. It might have come from the survivors into the hospital tank. HT is different from qt, it's where sick fish go to get better, qt is where new fish chill to make sure they aren't sick. Every new fish that you added to the hospital tank could reinfect

Like rff said stress can make ich much worse. Your 40b was crowded and some of your fish were aggressive and/or needed bigger tanks. That's going to weaken their immune systems. Most people's qt is smaller than their DT, if that's your setup than it would be even harder on them.

In any case, if it was ich that's not really something you get a refund for IMO. So many fish have it, you kinda have to assume they all do.

 

[chamjack]

I am assuming that he is telling you that the quarantine tank needs to be cycled. This is done just like you would have cycled your main tank. You can speed the process up by placing a piece of live rock from the main system in the quarantine tank to jump start the nitrogen cycle because it is already covered in good bacteria from the completed cycle in the main tank. You could kill you fish in QT if the tank isn't cycled and you are poisoning them with ammonia. I am guessing that was what he was referring to about the bacteria. He was also correct on if you have nothing in the QT and you want to keep it running, you will need to put food in it to keep the cycle going. The nitrogen cycle has nothing to do with the ich parasite though. Only way to overcome that is treat the fish in the QT tank and let the main tank fish less for approx 72 days. This lets the parasite complete its life cycle and die off with no host fish to let it continue. There are lots of posts on RC about setting up QT, the nitrogen cycle, and ways to beat ich.

 

[chamjack]

Oops......the good advice above beat me while I was typing:bounce2:

 

[Kizzy911]

Well, i've been treating my QT with copper and that my fish were all healthy for 2 months, they were fine. Until i bought another fish from LFS1 (the smaller clarkii) in which it had ICH an hour i put it in my Qt that HAD copper.
Also, iv'e heard that you don't actually need bacteria in your tank for the fish to be in it. though beneficial, it's not a must. though it might be wrong.

As of right now my main display is being fishes for 8 weeks.
and i find it BS that for someone who basically said the ICH came from them, the owner didn't do anything about it. As this situation aroused he told me with a strict tone "i wasn't really going to refund you for that fish"

 

[soeminpaing]

Dont cycle the QT with piece of live rock from infected tank. Usually let the infected tank go fishless for a month. You can use bacteria additives like microbacter7 to cycle the tank. In my experience, ich outbreaks happen when you stress the new fish. These new fish maybe spotless at LFS but after stress from transporting and inperfect water parameters at QT can give rise to the Ich outbreak in these new fish. Once the new fish has the ich outbreak, it will affect the old fish already in QT. This is the first scenario which is cause by new fish with ich . After first outbreak, surviving fish will c carry the disease but remain spotless to eyes and once new fish ( ich free) is introduced spots will appear on new fish first which made you to think you had purchased a disease fish. After that it will spreads to old fish in tank. These old fish can handle small amount of parasites fine but increase in parasite amounts from outbreak will affect them. My adive is to use UV both in QT and display tank. Whenever you have a outbreak in display tank run UV for a week. You need properly sized UV with flow rate. Ich is a pain to get rid of so I finally find a way to live with it using UV. From time to time, spots can appear especially new fish are added as I said but running UV these times can lower mortality a lot.

 

[Kizzy911]

Also, as an update: in my QT i currently have 1 goby, and 2 regular clowns, and the original 3 greens chromis' They're been doing well and none were from LFS1.

It's just frustrating to think that their fish always have ich and isn't very healthy, but i feel like the owner is just making some BS excuses to something he can't answer.

Like i've said i told him that the water wasn't from the Display tank so theres no way that ich was transferred there, PLUS the tank has copper so another thing on how theres no ich in my QT system. but he insisted and told me otherwise.

I'm frustrated but I'm If I'm wrong, i'm understandable about it.

 

[soeminpaing]

Also, as an update: in my QT i currently have 1 goby, and 2 regular clowns, and the original 3 greens chromis' They're been doing well and none were from LFS1.

It's just frustrating to think that their fish always have ich and isn't very healthy, but i feel like the owner is just making some BS excuses to something he can't answer.

Like i've said i told him that the water wasn't from the Display tank so theres no way that ich was transferred there, PLUS the tank has copper so another thing on how theres no ich in my QT system. but he insisted and told me otherwise.

I'm frustrated but I'm If I'm wrong, i'm understandable about it.

Never ever buy from a LFS which has ich. Goby are quite resistant to ich. I learned about ich a lot by helping my two friends. Both of them have 150+ gallons tanks and killed over 50-100 fish within 2-3 months with ich.

 

[shifty51008]

Your right a qt doesnt need to have bacteria in it at the start as long as your doing daily water changes to remove the ammonia.

Also when you get more fish, no tangs this time

 

[Kizzy911]

Yeah, but at the time being I wasn't aware about this. I've been staying away with buying fishes from them, even though it's very tempting. their Corals selections are great, but it's just that the owners care about the situation isn't very professional, it's a bunch of loopholes and trying to tell me what i did wrong even though it didn't make sense.

Compares to my LFS2 in which any fishes with the case of ICH will be refunded without the receipt. and Other losses will be taken care of, plus they'll QT the current fishes so ensure that it's ICH free.

 

[Taahirs]

I can guarantee you, that every fish you buy from a lfs has ich. No lfs is Going to TTM every fish that comes through. So ich will always be present.

That's why it's up to you to qt your fish properly.

I personally have never qt'd. But I keep a really low bioload and top water quality. Also feed well.

 

[atraperegrinus]

I can guarantee you, that every fish you buy from a lfs has ich. No lfs is Going to TTM every fish that comes through. So ich will always be present.

That's why it's up to you to qt your fish properly.

I personally have never qt'd. But I keep a really low bioload and top water quality. Also feed well.

+1 all my LFS say right on the door as you walk in, all saltwater fish are not covered for loss. I'd expect nothing less than ich from any fish you buy.

To be honest it sounds like OP could use some serious reading time back in the setting up sticky, and maybe do some more overall reading in the forums here. Seems like a few bits of information pulled out of context from multiple sources are getting mixed up.

#1 for ich TTM seems to be the go to these days.
#2 QT can be cycled or uncycled, but you cant mix the two and let water quality suffer if you go the uncycled route.
heres the link for uncycled QT information:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2380245
and heres the link for cycled QT information:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2195588

links are pulled from the sticky here, which has pretty much everything youll need to know.
th elink to that sticky is here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

 

[Kidd Reef]

Never ever buy from a LFS which has ich. Goby are quite resistant to ich. I learned about ich a lot by helping my two friends. Both of them have 150+ gallons tanks and killed over 50-100 fish within 2-3 months with ich.

As a few other posters have mentioned here almost any LFS has a HUGE chance of having ich in their systems. Nature of the game, The turnover rate on fish is such that its almost guranteed ich will get in eventually and highly unlikely tanks will ever be left fallow long enough to be ich free once infected with ich.Better to QT all incoming fish at least just to be safe than to hope you've found the holy grail of fish stores that Properly Quarantines all incoming livestock.Even pulling a fish straight from the ocean itself is a dice roll.

 

[soeminpaing]

As a few other posters have mentioned here almost any LFS has a HUGE chance of having ich in their systems. Nature of the game, The turnover rate on fish is such that its almost guranteed ich will get in eventually and highly unlikely tanks will ever be left fallow long enough to be ich free once infected with ich.Better to QT all incoming fish at least just to be safe than to hope you've found the holy grail of fish stores that Properly Quarantines all incoming livestock.Even pulling a fish straight from the ocean itself is a dice roll.

When you can see the spot on the fish at LFS these fish has ich outbreak which means large number of parasities. So staying away without purchasing is the best choice. Even though you can't see white spot on fish, there can be ich parasite in fish as I mentioned before. Some fish store use Low salinity and copper in their system togehter with UV to prevent the outbreak. So fish seem spotless even though they have ich in their body. Tangs and butterfly are most prone to ich. In my case I cant seem to get rid of ich with QT alone.

 

[Kizzy911]

My question is this, is ich able to survive after long periods in s QT with copper treatment?

 

[snorvich]

My question is this, is ich able to survive after long periods in s QT with copper treatment?

It depends.

 

[Kizzy911]

It depends.

Depends, under which circumstances?

 

[shermanator]

My question is this, is ich able to survive after long periods in s QT with copper treatment?

Do you have a test kit for copper? If not, you could be dosing too little and winding up with sub-therapeutic levels.

It's also worth noting that copper (but not cupramine) will destroy your biological filter (it will kill the bacteria). So you should testing daily for ammonia (and changing water as appropriate).

 

[Kizzy911]

cupramine copper instructions say slowly doze and add up until it's .5 at the moment i followed the instructions. It seems to do well because all the fish are still alive except when i put the clarkii from LFS1