SPS Corals Missing Color

[jda]

Thanks for your .2 cents so if I understand you and I do if I stop dosing vodka my sps will color up and what do I do with the PO4 and nitrates? GFO and water changes?

You let the bacteria in the sand bed grow and consume them in equilibrium with your tank. If you don't have sand, or sand less than 2-3 inches, then you keep on dosing vodka. If you started dosing or using GFO before a year, then it is possible that this last part of the cycle did not complete since it can take a year or more to happen. Aragonite is a very good phosphate binder and the bacteria will remove it as they need to grow. You should vacuum small part of your sand so that you get it all in 2-4 years... SLOWLY.

 

[jda]

So how is one supposed to raise nitrates?

If you are not artificially stripping them, then you won't need to raise them. The bacteria in the tank will come to equilibrium with the rest of the tank to consume what the coral and surface algae cannot.

What I really shoot for is some small amount of film algae and or surface algae growth that a suitable clean up crew can handle and also "clear" readings on salifert test kits... so I know that I have nitrate and phosphate, but it is very low.

I you just made this change, then give it some time. Nothing good happens fast.

 

[trueblackpercula]

You let the bacteria in the sand bed grow and consume them in equilibrium with your tank. If you don't have sand, or sand less than 2-3 inches, then you keep on dosing vodka. If you started dosing or using GFO before a year, then it is possible that this last part of the cycle did not complete since it can take a year or more to happen. Aragonite is a very good phosphate binder and the bacteria will remove it as they need to grow. You should vacuum small part of your sand so that you get it all in 2-4 years... SLOWLY.

Tank is 6 years old sand bed is 5 years old. I just started gfo three days ago and I dose vodka and gfo to get the demon hair algea to die.

 

[jda]

Any tank capable of growing dinoflagelites in coral is capable of growing hair algae. What do you have to consume the stuff? How is your crew? I have about 100 astreas in my 120, two emerald crabs and handful of hermits - I have double this in my 240G. I have a REALLY clean tank, but if I took all of the snails out, I would be overrun by hair algae too, or worse, in a few months.

Be careful that you don't starve your corals too. Watch the tips of the SPS.

 

[trueblackpercula]

Any tank capable of growing dinoflagelites in coral is capable of growing hair algae. What do you have to consume the stuff? How is your crew? I have about 100 astreas in my 120, two emerald crabs and handful of hermits - I have double this in my 240G. I have a REALLY clean tank, but if I took all of the snails out, I would be overrun by hair algae too, or worse, in a few months.

Be careful that you don't starve your corals too. Watch the tips of the SPS.

I have two large turbo snails that won't even look at it and about 100 small snails. Take a look at my picture gallery and you will see the algae. It's deffinatly hair algae from hell.

 

[Alex T.]

Any tank capable of growing dinoflagelites in coral is capable of growing hair algae. What do you have to consume the stuff? How is your crew? I have about 100 astreas in my 120, two emerald crabs and handful of hermits - I have double this in my 240G. I have a REALLY clean tank, but if I took all of the snails out, I would be overrun by hair algae too, or worse, in a few months.

Be careful that you don't starve your corals too. Watch the tips of the SPS.

^This is so true!

Even the healthiest of natural reefs have algae growing here and there. They don't look like freshly mixed saltwater with pristine live rock. We hobbyists have seemed to move toward a school of thought that subscribes to "nutrients" being a bad thing. Nutrients are the components/building blocks of nutrition!

While we've grown accustomed to seeing so many great tanks stating that their nitrates and phosphates are undetectable, I believe this is a slippery slope. Natural reefs are nutrient rich and DOC (dissolved organic compounds) poor. There's a difference. For example, the conventional way of aquascaping a tank called for one to one and a half pounds of live rock for biological filtration. While this was great at lowering nitrates with all the biologically available surface area for beneficial bacteria, I feel our larger foe as SPS keepers (detritus) had a better chance to accumulate as corals grew, flow decreased, and parts of the tank were no longer accessible for maintenance. So, what happens is that detritus breaks down, food doesn't get consumed and slowly raises phosphates to detrimental levels by having so much surface area in all that rock to bind to...all the while measuring 0 ppm nitrates. The amount of GFO you'll need to kill off all that algae will most certainly be potent enough to kill off corals too. They're both photosynthetic and need only trace amounts of nutrients to survive.

The more modern approach of having less live rock and a more minimalist aquascape appears to tip the scales in our favor. It's also very popular with low nutrient disciples because the bacteria driven system is on overdrive, and simply doesn't require as much live rock. Flow can be increased and corals have much more room to grow. Look at tanks from 10 years ago. While still impressive, their growth rates, polyp extension and coloration aren't quite as "wow" as what we're seeing today. With less rock there is a considerably higher water volume, and IMHO a much more stable system. What we can learn from the great tanks of yesteryear is that they had large helpings of snails, crabs and a host of other interesting cleanup crew members working non-stop to try and keep nuisance algae at bay. I've noticed most of the tanks today have very little (if any) snails on the glass or crabs crawling around on the sand bed and rock work.

It's much easier to clean up your water than unbind excessive phosphate from 150 pounds of liverock in a 100 gallon tank. I think there's a better balance in the minimalist approach with a sufficient cleanup crew to keep a reasonable amount of algae at bay. If you're getting a little bit of algae now and then it's just a testament to a healthy system. Feeding a few fish more (instead of getting more fish) and changing out gfo at accelerated intervals will raise your nitrate while helping to lower phosphate. It works. Phosphate levels more easily kept lower when you raise nitrate levels. Having those extra nutrients in the water column while using a cleanup crew and gfo/carbon goes a long way in coloring up sps.

Lastly, I think too many people ignore their sumps. Refugiums aside, when I try and keep the sump in my SPS tank as clean as possible, there is a positive effect in the display. I wet vac all the detritus from my sump with each water change, and rinse out the foam block in my bubble trap each week. I even scrape and use a mag cleaner on the glass. The filth that is removed from my sump during a water change is astonishing. I keep reminding myself that the sump is a filter, and if it's dirty then it can't function at its' optimal level. Why go through all the trouble of cleaning the display tank, only to have the water pass through a filtering system that's just as dirty (or worse) than the display?

...just a wee bit more than .02

 

[dtum]

Couple of things to add to this thread.

First: I have an idea on what has lowered my phosphates since last week - in my second external refugium I have a mud-like substrate, called Refugite by TLF. It is known to bind phosphate and perhaps is the reason for its disappearance.

<img src="http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7343/10076635814_a71ef35563_b.jpg" width="1024" height="680" alt="DSC02573">

Second: while part of me wants to jump in and start making all of the changes, I know that this is not right. So here is my plan:

October. Remove carbon and continue running everything else as it were, but increase the feeding overall.

November. Cut ProdiBio dosing in half, I currently add two vials of each, will switch to a single vial.

December. Stop ProdiBio.

January. Start playing with lighting, perhaps increase it by 10% monthly.

February. Switch to guppies and fake plants.

Finally, I will be measuring my nitrates and phosphates on a regular basis to keep an eye on the nutrients. I will keep on testing other parameters as well. I will also invest in a couple of new test kits to measure for more obscure parameters, such as Iron, Potassium, Iodine, etc.

Obviously even this is not a controlled experiment, since there will be a lot of other changes happening in the tank beyond my control (different small and large cycles, creatures dying, adding a fish or two..., swapping corals, cleaning macro algae) that may all contribute.

All of this is why I love this hobby.

<img src="http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3832/10076772353_2f81b50fd4_b.jpg" width="680" height="1024" alt="DSC02571">

 

[jda]

The plastic plants and mud will get you over the top for sure.

I need to read about that stuff. Does it really bind the phosphate, or does it use it up with growth? Interesting, but I think that you might be right. Also consider the margin for error on your phosphate test kit... most of them are like .02 or .03, or more, so you might not really be swinging as bad as you thought. In any case, the bacterial approach in the mud is likely to be more stable and effective, IMO.

 

[Patrick Cox]

If you are not artificially stripping them, then you won't need to raise them. The bacteria in the tank will come to equilibrium with the rest of the tank to consume what the coral and surface algae cannot.

What I really shoot for is some small amount of film algae and or surface algae growth that a suitable clean up crew can handle and also "clear" readings on salifert test kits... so I know that I have nitrate and phosphate, but it is very low.

I you just made this change, then give it some time. Nothing good happens fast.

Thanks. Does skimming fall under "artificially stripping them?"

 

[jda]

Not to me. Skimming removes organics before they become N and P. I was specifically talking about the actual Nitrate and Phosphate that is around after the early phases of the N cycle. I was not removing them before hand by either skimming or not feeding, or feeding less, but interestingly skimming is also kinda artificial when compared to the bacteria working in the tank.

 

[jbraslins]

Tagging along. My problem is the moment I increase feeding and get to detectable NO3, I also get hair algae outbreaks. How do you feed your tank to keep NO3 present but not get phosphates/hair algae?

Thanks.

 

[seamcintyre]

I am very curious to follow this thread as well. I am in a similar situation with my tank. Radion G2 lackingn sps color. Running ROX and Gfo.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Alex T.]

Tagging along. My problem is the moment I increase feeding and get to detectable NO3, I also get hair algae outbreaks. How do you feed your tank to keep NO3 present but not get phosphates/hair algae?

Thanks.

If you could list what you're feeding that would help a lot. Also, running a quality GFO and changing it out when it matches the tank's levels is good practice. I like to run half the recommended amount and change it more often. The GFO will help lower phosphates while allowing nitrate to rise slightly. Once the nitrate is higher, your gfo change out duration should increase a little. It's a delicate balance.

It also helps to have a good clean up crew that can help with the hair algae too. Lastly, how old are your lights? My SPS seem to fade a little and I'll get some green hair algae patches here and there when it's time to change my halide bulbs. Lastly, I rinse out all my frozen foods in a little container with some aquarium water and then strain it for a few minutes to get all the goop out that I don't want to add to the tank. Then, with a turkey baster I slowly release a little at a time into the tank with my powerheads turned down. I make sure none of the food is floating all over the tank by letting out a very small amount at a time until all the fish have been fed and are happy.

 

[jda]

You need something to consume the hair and other algae. Florida Keys astreas will mow down hair once the film algae is gone. Florida Keys emerald crabs will destroy it, and nearly every other kind of nuisance algae. Mexican turbos will also crush macro once the film algae is gone. Lots of fish will eat it too, like most rabbitfish and a few tangs. I had a pink tail trigger once that would chow down on macro.

If they coral can eat more and grow better, so can the algae, so just have algae consumers... and lots of them.

 

[sahin]

Dtum:

I believe you can get very good colours with your lights. IMO, perhaps not as perfect as the best Radium+VHO Actinic lit tanks, but I am sure you can get very close.

Have a look at these two LED tanks (I hope it is ok to link other forums, Mods please delete if required):

1. http://www.pnwmas.org/forums/showthread.php?28114-Reefnjunkie-s-400-gallon-inwall/page30

2. http://www.ultimatereef.com/TOTM/2012_december/

See the colours? They are both running LED's. The second one runs Radions.

Have a look at this Youtube video:

1. http://youtu.be/-Q9gXBsOlIU
That guy is running a much lesser known French brand of LED unit.

Pretty good isnt it?

Now with regards to the lack of colour:

1. Greatly reduce the use of GAC. Many times I have found this to pull out stuff from the water resulting in the SPS becoming pale and lacking colour.

2. If you can, stop GAC use altogether. I run a few hours of Ozone every few weeks to polish the water. Works awesomely.

3. Increase water changes if you can. When my corals were pale, I increased water changes to 20% each week. This will assist with the INPUT more food EXPORT more waste which goes with no 4. below.

4. FEED MORE. Feed your fishes more frequently. Keep an eye on the PO4 levels. Once you reach 0.03ppm and above, start using small amounts of PO4 remover.

5. Reduce the use of Prodibio as you described above.

6. As mentioned by others, algae in your tank isnt a bad thing. Natural reefs are not devoid of algae, there are numerous grazers constantly keeping it in check. Add a slightly larger set of grazers if required. If PO4 stays around 0.03ppm then you shouldnt really have an algae problem anyway.

7. Your LED spectrum setup may need adjusting. Too much blue for example or not long enough white spectrum may be a cause. Maybe run the default 14K spectrum slightly adjusted for a 20K look towards the evening?

Hope the above gives some ideas. Keep us informed about any progress or otherwise.

 

[sahin]

Have a look at this awesome Radion lit nano tank: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2287628&page=4

This is an amazing example of a Radion SPS reef.

I think by my posts showing the examples you can be absolutely confident that you can get very decent colours with LED systems.

 

[Touring]

its your lights... im going to start a new thread with one site of my tank lit with leds the other with mh's.

i am not a sponser and not trying to sell off leds like there the same so we will see some real results. im gonna update with weekly shots of the tank from the same spot every time .

 

[Bello]

Sahin, you have a link to the french guy's thread?

 

[sahin]

Sahin, you have a link to the french guy's thread?

Bello, afraid not. But I searched up the lights he is using a while ago: nothing special about the lights. Standard Cree diodes etc. He is also running a bare bottom tank as far as I can see. The tank appears to have a lot more liverock than we tend to see on this forum.

Even if he was using Zeovit etc, no matter, it provides an indication that with the right parameters you can have beautiful corals under LED's.

 

[trueblackpercula]

its your lights... im going to start a new thread with one site of my tank lit with leds the other with mh's.

i am not a sponser and not trying to sell off leds like there the same so we will see some real results. im gonna update with weekly shots of the tank from the same spot every time .

Why is it the LEDs ?????