SPS Dominated 47G Reef

Hi. Here is a PAR map of my tank as it was a couple of years ago I think...forgot to be honest...tank does NOT look like that now. This was the 2nd reset of this tank.
DSC_9719.jpg


Previous to the current incarnation of the setup, I was running the LED's at 700mA. Now running at 350mA and PAR has decreased a little around the edges (T5's unchanged), with most of the drop in PAR around the middle/under the LEDs...this has balanced the PAR spread across the whole of the tank with little or no hotspot) At 700mA I felt it was a little too much PAR in the centre area...see the numbers on the PAR map. Some of those numbers are just too high IMO (particularly since I am using a combo of T5 (which bathes most parts of a coral and Blue LED's which are high in PUR and very directional). Whilst most corals were very colourful, a small number were a bit pale for my taste.


It really does sadden me to see how good my tank was and that I lost it all...and had nothing but problems the past few years...

To continue the discussion; With the LED's at 350mA, most of the corals receive 220 to 250PAR. I have one rock which reaches fairly high in the water volume, and it is here where the PAR is around 400 at peak. You have to remember that my tank is only 18inches high, the water line is almost 2 inches away from the top due to being rimless...then subtract 24mm from the bottom because the tank has 2 x 12mm bases...which makes the water height somewhere around 15.5inches, so the PAR drop isnt much.

The corners of my tank right at the bottom is around 150 even with the LED's at 350mA. At the centre of the tank on the bottom its about 190-220.

The weakest area is where I have planted the Red Planet; I wanted to retain the green colouration in the Red Planet...at higher PAR it loses the green.

So to sum up; most of my corals get around the 220-250PAR, the Red Planet, Branching Cyphastrea (which is not an SPS), and a few other deepwaters/smooth skinned Acros get the lower end of the PAR level.

A selected few like Milli/Prostrata type get the higher end at 250 to just under 400.

(Note also that the Apogee meter under reads by about 5-10% depending on the diode wavelength).



My ATI Sunpower unit sits 8inches above the waterline. I would say that colouration is fine at these PAR levels. I wouldnt be able to really tell you if the 300vs600 which would be better because back when I used 250w Metal Halides with T5 supplements, I didnt have access to a PAR. At 600 PAR a lot of SPS will reach photoinhibition and would be trying their best to stay alive, so growth will likely get slower as you reach photoinhibition levels. Going by this same setup, when the PAR was much higher, I would say some colours were perhaps a little more intense (eg greens), but overall, colours are just as good when I had slightly higher PAR, with some corals like I said maybe a little pale.

This fits in nicely with explanation in literature. - See:

1. Chart showing PAR requirements of certain corals:
Coral-light-requirements.jpg


2. Table 1 right at the bottom of this article: - Table 1. Compensation, Saturation and Photoinhibition Points of various reef animals (which includes a few more SPS species not in above chart:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/3/aafeature1

3. See also this article which goes into explaining how certain colours with appear more intensified under higher PAR:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature1

The articles has charts such as this one which shows that over 400 PAR the intensity of certain colours diminish:
image020.jpg


4. Aside from Literature, here is a post by another RC member with LOTS of reefkeeping experience, completely agreeing with me in respect of PAR requirements from a practical point of view:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22072763&postcount=183


Like the reefkeeper I linked immediately above, a lot of us old timers will say 250 is plenty...It doesnt need to be 250...it could be 300 etc, but its the sort of figure that in my experience is a good baseline, and if you know you are hitting around 250-300 on most SPS and they are still brown; then you need to look elsewhere like your water quality etc.

So with regards to PAR levels for SPS, yes, in my experience one can have very good colour in most SPS with about 250 PAR.



That is along the lines of my experience as well. Particularly with LED's...I think they are so directional and most of the light from LED's hit the upper surface of the coral...whereas with T5 or MH the coral is hit with light from a far greater range of angles ie very diffuse light with T5 and with MH due to the large reflectors etc.



Well, you have my thoughts and a lot of it is backed up literature too. Get the baseline PAR and concentrate on your water quality, keeping your paramters stable, keeping the hands out the tank and things like pests.

You wouldnt believe it, but my first SPS tank was a nano tank lit with 3 x 18watt T8's. This was more than about 12 or 13 years ago...back then nano tanks werent taken as seriously as the larger tanks...and many people did say that you couldnt keep acropora healthy and coloured up in nano tanks due to swings and low light levels. Well I did. And I had good colour too. But I did have the SPS corals 3 inches under the waterline with the lights only 2 inches above the water. But it worked and I had nice colour in my SPS.

Light is only one factor in SPS corals. As long as you got the baseline: ie around 250 for most, less for others like Monti Caps etc then your lights are fine. Where extra PAR will most likely help is when the tank is in a eutrophic stage, extra PAR will cause the coral to expel at least some of the Zooxanthellae.

Water quality and food has SO much more to do with SPS colour than light IMO...because it is very easy to hit most SPS with decent PAR.

In respect of SPS growth, with decent light levels and stable parameters and Alk, Ca and Mg at suitable levels one should get decent growth rates.

Lots of great information here, thanks for sharing.
 
How are things going for you, Sahin?

Not terribly bad. Thanks for asking.

The tank is simply on auto pilot. Has been for around two months. I havent done a water change nor scraped the back glass...which is now full of coralline algae. I just feed the fish, keep topup container topped up and make sure the Alk, Ca and Mg containers are not going empty (that failed one or twice).

- Had Alk dive down to 5 once and below 5 another time! :eek2: First time no effects, but 2nd time it happened I had tiny (less than 3mm) sized tissue loss on one of two pieces. But overall have been VERY lucky.

Corals are doing well considering. Colours on some pieces I would now class as GREAT. Others AVERAGE and a small number as TURDS.

I am having a couple of buddies come over in two weeks to help me with water changes etc. Going to use this get together to make a few bottles of my Alk solution as well so that I can switch out as soon as it starts to run out.

I am trying to tweak the system to get those turds to colour up by adding bacterial supplements...Richard (Jackson6745) uses a trio of bacteria and is having excellent results on a 5 month old tank, so since I also had that kind of success a few years ago when dosing a combo of Zeobac, Biodigest and Special Blend, I ordered in Special Blend, Biodigest and Nite-out II, to try and replicate the same results I was having previously.
 
I am trying to tweak the system to get those turds to colour up by adding bacterial supplements...Richard (Jackson6745) uses a trio of bacteria and is having excellent results on a 5 month old tank, so since I also had that kind of success a few years ago when dosing a combo of Zeobac, Biodigest and Special Blend, I ordered in Special Blend, Biodigest and Nite-out II, to try and replicate the same results I was having previously.

Sahin, what's the idea behind this? Is it just a more laid back approach to a Bacteria & Carbon dosing system? I understand the idea of diversity with different types of bacteria, but, without carbon dosing, are you still seeing a drop in N and P? Also, do you think the bacteria is being consumed by the corals, which would help with colors?

The reason I ask is because I dosed carbon and bacteria for a while. I believed it helped with some corals, but it seemed I couldn't dose much of it, as it would strip my system too much. I don't keep many fish. Having said that, I try to feed things like Reef Booster, Roti-feast, and Oyster Feast. But, if bacteria would be a good food source and not strip the system too much, I'd be interested in dosing again for the sake of a varied diet. I have a few brands already, just sitting on the shelf. Thanks for any thoughts!
 
Kasey, In my application, the idea is to have a system that functions like a very established system in a short time. This can be beneficial in an older system as well, let me explain. Keep in mind I am only speaking from my experience and speculation here. I'll try to keep it short and simple. :)

I've always noticed how some larger and or more established reefs had such large bio-loads and no nuisance algae and decent water quality. I also noticed that these reefs had some of these best SPS colors out there. This got me thinking….

So, I had a reef that I was aggressively cleaning, fed diligently, and not "overly stocked". I maintained reefs like this and in effect I never actually challenged the biological capacity of this tank. I didn't add exorbitant amounts of food in the tank, and numbers were always close to "0". SPS colors were always on the lighter side.

I decided to start dosing various bacterias to help mature my new reef. I stocked heavily, fed heavily, and pushed my bioload. I was expecting a cyano outbreak and I got it, for 6 weeks. Rather than panic and drastically clean my reef, I allowed bacteria to outcompete the cyano. I've done this successfully before with special blend. 6 weeks later cyano was completely gone and I never had to reduce my bioload or increase my filtration at all. I feed this tank a ton and never have nutrient issues or problem algae (except for bubble algae which I always had).

It's only been 5 months but my tank has matured at such a rate that I can't debate the results. My SPS polyp extension and overall health has been some of the best that I ever had. I have 20 fish and feed twice per day. Po4 is from .00-.02, nitrate is at 10ppm. I actually want the nitrate in my water as I feel that the colors are dependent on this with such low po4. The end result is a tank that has a lot of nutrients put in through foods and fish waste which we know SPS love, and a filtration system that is heavily dependent on bacteria to keep nutrients from getting too high.

IME you must have adequate surface area for bacteria for this to work. I would imagine BB guys with minimalist aquascapes having a hard time making this method work. I actually have a separate area in my sump with 25lbs of rock rubble. I believe this extra surface area is key to my success. The bioload must also be increased. IME Adding coral foods and amino is not the equivalent of have extra fish poop and urine.

That's about all I can think of now :)
 
Richard, thanks for your input. :thumbsup:

Kasey, I've been following Richards tanks for many many years now...and his current tank is the most successful in the quickest time, compared to his previous tanks. I truly believe the success is due to the filtration system employed in his current tank.

My tank in its previous incarnation had MUCH better success in a far shorter period of time. The only difference between the tank now and as it was before is the filtration system/rocks. -Previously, I could place a brown coral in my tank and within 2 weeks it would start to colour up and change! SPS colours were much better in many different corals previously. I did have a lot more liverock before, and if the bacterial addition doesnt work, I will add more rocks to the sump.
 
Richard and Sahin, thank you very much for the information and insight.

In the past, I've always dosed bacteria in my systems to jump start them. I would usually continue this, but in a smaller amount as the tank progressed. I will agree that fish waste seems to be utilized much more easily than bottled foods. When my livestock was crammed in a 10g, things seemed to love it, to a point. Due to time, I didn't pay a lot of attention, and the nitrates were getting a bit high (>10ppm, closer to 20ppm). The only thing that changed (besides flow) was the fish concentration compared to the water volume.

I agree, that a BB minimalist system (that includes mine) would not be able to pack as much fish volume (I'm going to say fish volume, as we all know fish/gallon lacks specificity) per gallon, compared to a system with more surface area. But, I do speculate that there could be a fish volume to coral volume ratio that would be equivalent. In other words, you have more rock and sand than me, but you also have more corals to feed. Following that train of thought, I think that if I don't cram my corals any more than I have, I may be able to reach that happy point. On the other hand, the fact would still remain that my fish waste to water volume ratio would not be the same as yours.

I think for me it boils down to this: Is the concentration of the fish waste in the water the critical variable? Or is it simply a question of providing enough waste for the amount of corals in the tank? What do you guys think?

Is this derailing, Sahin?
 
Richard and Sahin, thank you very much for the information and insight.

In the past, I've always dosed bacteria in my systems to jump start them. I would usually continue this, but in a smaller amount as the tank progressed. I will agree that fish waste seems to be utilized much more easily than bottled foods. When my livestock was crammed in a 10g, things seemed to love it, to a point. Due to time, I didn't pay a lot of attention, and the nitrates were getting a bit high (>10ppm, closer to 20ppm). The only thing that changed (besides flow) was the fish concentration compared to the water volume.

I agree, that a BB minimalist system (that includes mine) would not be able to pack as much fish volume (I'm going to say fish volume, as we all know fish/gallon lacks specificity) per gallon, compared to a system with more surface area. But, I do speculate that there could be a fish volume to coral volume ratio that would be equivalent. In other words, you have more rock and sand than me, but you also have more corals to feed. Following that train of thought, I think that if I don't cram my corals any more than I have, I may be able to reach that happy point. On the other hand, the fact would still remain that my fish waste to water volume ratio would not be the same as yours.

I think for me it boils down to this: Is the concentration of the fish waste in the water the critical variable? Or is it simply a question of providing enough waste for the amount of corals in the tank? What do you guys think?

Is this derailing, Sahin?

Dont be silly man, not derailing at all. :debi:

With my last system, within 11 months, I had a pretty successful system. I had a decent fish load, had more rocks than I have now and dosed a trio of bacteria. I fed fairly well and ran NO3 and PO4 similar to what I have now.

I feel I had a better balance with regards to fish stock and biological filtration. Currently, haven't quite hit that sweet spot.

You do need a certain level of fish waste. As for providing enough waste(food) for your corals; whatever isnt taken up/used by the corals, the mechanical/biological and chemical filtration picks up the rest. If you are needing to scrape the algae dusting on your glass everyday, then you either need to increase the filtration, or reduce the food input until the buildup/glass cleaning is down to around 3 days or so.
 
Do you have any links for reading on these bacteria products? I would love to look into that and maybe experiment with them as well.
 
Do you have any links for reading on these bacteria products? I would love to look into that and maybe experiment with them as well.

Most of all the info you will find is one forums. :reading: What is mean is that much of the scientific research done, has been concentrated around freshwater...so I cant think of any links right now (You may find some links in the Advanced Forum)...However, look at Sunnyx's thread here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1436138

Sunnyx dosed BW MB7 and Vodka.
 
I think for me it boils down to this: Is the concentration of the fish waste in the water the critical variable? Or is it simply a question of providing enough waste for the amount of corals in the tank? What do you guys think?


I feel that it is the bacteria population that the fish waste generates. This bacteria is feeding the SPS. Without the bioload, the bacteria has no reason to exist.
 
Sahin, I think I may have too few fish/bioload. I haven't cleaned my glass since I moved everything back into the 60g in February! :lmao:

Richard, now that makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for the info!
 
Dont be silly man, not derailing at all. :debi:

With my last system, within 11 months, I had a pretty successful system. I had a decent fish load, had more rocks than I have now and dosed a trio of bacteria. I fed fairly well and ran NO3 and PO4 similar to what I have now.

I feel I had a better balance with regards to fish stock and biological filtration. Currently, haven't quite hit that sweet spot.

You do need a certain level of fish waste. As for providing enough waste(food) for your corals; whatever isnt taken up/used by the corals, the mechanical/biological and chemical filtration picks up the rest. If you are needing to scrape the algae dusting on your glass everyday, then you either need to increase the filtration, or reduce the food input until the buildup/glass cleaning is down to around 3 days or so.

Sahin,have you ever had a tank that food for corals came exclusively from fish waste?
Even with many fish and frequent feedings,i was always adding something.:sad2:
That balance you mentioned is the key to a nice tank buddy!
Couldn't agree more...the only thing that i hate is....that is not easy to achieve:o
 
Sahin,have you ever had a tank that food for corals came exclusively from fish waste?
Even with many fish and frequent feedings,i was always adding something.:sad2:
That balance you mentioned is the key to a nice tank buddy!
Couldn't agree more...the only thing that i hate is....that is not easy to achieve:o

Yes, definitely. I used to feed my fishes flakes and frozen brineshrimp and that was it. No GFO, no GAC, no carbon dosing. Lots of Liverock and water changes along with 2 part dosing (done by hand each evening). Never tested for PO4 those days, and only tested NO3 to make sure it was below 20ppm.
 
I can feel you with the hand dosing of two part sahin!
Was doing the same thing every single night,but with kalk buddy!
For 1+ year!!
At that point it's hard to tell if that was love-commitment to my tank or something else...:hmm4::hmm4::lol:
 
Could you elaborate on the use of multiple bacteria sources at the same time?


Do you dose them all everyday, or rotate them on different days/weeks?


Do you dose the recommended amount of each bacteria product when you do dose, or do you cut the dose down to compensate for it not being the sole bacteria product dosed to the tank?

Any other info on the process you use as you dose multiple bacteria sources simultaneously would be appreciated. Thanks.
 
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