SPS remains bleached long-term. Solution? (pics)

[iwishtofish]

I agree looks like a lack of food for the coral to feed on. I found better color with increased no3.

What kind of levels would we be talking about? How about PO4? It was always my understanding that SPS loved the cleanest water and the brightest light, so all this nutrient stuff is new to me (particularly with the spectacular colors I've seen in ULNS systems).

I have the same issue with all my SPS.

Here is my tricolor valida. It sits about 3" down under a 4x24 TEK. I have a decent fish load and also feed my LPS pretty often.

I've tried everything, long photoperiod, short photoperiod, food, no food, aminos, Lugol's, you name it. This is the best it has ever looked (other than when I first got it, it was deep purple then)

I see that your corals have been growing, though. Frustrating, isn't it? I wonder what the situation would be if our corals were under MH rather than T5s...

 

[dixiedog]

Yeah some are growing, some not so much. That valida is actually my best grower.

My tank has always been pretty 'clean', currently barebottom, no N/P measurable via Salifert. I run an octopus 110 on a system of 30 gallons total, roughly, which is obviously a lot. Too much maybe???

Chaeto will not grow for me anymore. It used to but not now. Had persistent cyano til I went barebottom though.

I do believe this 'pale SPS' issue is more common among T5 tank owners, based on what I've read. But I have no guess as to why. Other T5 guys with way more PAR than I have, still have beautiful SPS.

 

[chadfarmer]

did you acclimate the coral to the different lighting?

 

[dixiedog]

I wouldn't raise your light. Going from a 400w MH to a TEK T5 is a lot less light. I would venture to guess it's either not enough light or not enough nutrients. You could try dosing aminos as well as some foods specific for corals.

I'm going through the same thing with several corals. I got them in a year ago and over a few months they slowly faded. About 2 months ago I lowered my light fixture and things started to go from pale tan/white to a pale coloration but stopped at a certain point. I just recently switched my ATI Sunpower out for a 250w MH pendant and things are starting to turn around a bit more. Most of my corals came from tanks with 400w MH as well. I guess they just never adapted to the lower light even after several months, and I thought ATI was supposed to be the king of T5.

It was really baffling because I had always understood that, as far as light is concerned, brown means not enough and white means too much. Apparently that is not always the case. It wasn't every coral that turned white either, some stayed the same and others browned. From what I've read, bleaching from light occurs somewhat quickly, not over weeks/months. Anyway, just some ideas. When I researched the problem everyone was saying my tank was too clean, but in my case light seems to do the trick.

Hmmmm, interesting thought.

 

[iwishtofish]

did you acclimate the coral to the different lighting?

If that question is directed to me, I didn't. I figured that if the corals were coming from under 400w MH, and I was putting them halfway down under T5s, I wouldn't need to.

 

[allsps40]

Running ULNS???

 

[iwishtofish]

Running ULNS???

Not specifically. I do run carbon and gfo, but I don't dose a carbon source. I have no fish, so I feed meaty pellets minimally to keep inverts alive (no algae).

 

[dzhuo]

It was always my understanding that SPS loved the cleanest water and the brightest light, so all this nutrient stuff is new to me (particularly with the spectacular colors I've seen in ULNS systems).

You don't want a ULNS. Your tank and the picture of this coral you posted is the reason why. A ULNS is not something to be proud of or a successful model to follow. A true ULNS system is designed to stress and starve corals. It's a chronic stress condition producing unhealthy corals. Think of ULNS as a desert. Lots of people referring to ULNS as what's naturally occur in coral reef which is complete false. What you really want is a TCNS - Tightly Cycled Nutrient System - that's what a true diverse coral reef is all about. In a natural reef, the water is extremely nutrient rich (or there won't be diversity) and the nutrient is quickly become consume and recycled so the whole system appears to be ultra low in nutrient but isn't. A mature healthy reef tank will eventually reach TCNS and it's when corals will appear to the healthiest with deep rich coloration. You will heard lots of people say they can feed a tremendous amount of food with lots of fish and yet there isn't any detectable of N & P, well that's because these nutrients are being quickly consume and recycled.

Your coral is a classic example of a starving coral. Your rock is bare and can't even grow algae. This is not a path to do down.

 

[iwishtofish]

You don't want a ULNS. Your tank and the picture of this coral you posted is the reason why. A ULNS is not something to be proud of or a successful model to follow. A true ULNS system is designed to stress and starve corals. It's a chronic stress condition producing unhealthy corals. Think of ULNS as a desert. Lots of people referring to ULNS as what's naturally occur in coral reef which is complete false. What you really want is a TCNS - Tightly Cycled Nutrient System - that's what a true diverse coral reef is all about. In a natural reef, the water is extremely nutrient rich (or there won't be diversity) and the nutrient is quickly become consume and recycled so the whole system appears to be ultra low in nutrient but isn't. A mature healthy reef tank will eventually reach TCNS and it's when corals will appear to the healthiest with deep rich coloration. You will heard lots of people say they can feed a tremendous amount of food with lots of fish and yet there isn't any detectable of N & P, well that's because these nutrients are being quickly consume and recycled.

Your coral is a classic example of a starving coral. Your rock is bare and can't even grow algae. This is not a path to do down.

Thanks for the insight. Based on what you've told me, I'm going to increase feedings a bit for the CBS, hermits, and microfauna. I am also going to target feed the corals with Reef Chili twice a day. I am eager to see the results.

Would you recommend I continue the use of carbon and gfo?

 

[cromedogg33]

You don't want a ULNS. Your tank and the picture of this coral you posted is the reason why. A ULNS is not something to be proud of or a successful model to follow. A true ULNS system is designed to stress and starve corals. It's a chronic stress condition producing unhealthy corals. Think of ULNS as a desert. Lots of people referring to ULNS as what's naturally occur in coral reef which is complete false. What you really want is a TCNS - Tightly Cycled Nutrient System - that's what a true diverse coral reef is all about. In a natural reef, the water is extremely nutrient rich (or there won't be diversity) and the nutrient is quickly become consume and recycled so the whole system appears to be ultra low in nutrient but isn't. A mature healthy reef tank will eventually reach TCNS and it's when corals will appear to the healthiest with deep rich coloration. You will heard lots of people say they can feed a tremendous amount of food with lots of fish and yet there isn't any detectable of N & P, well that's because these nutrients are being quickly consume and recycled.

Your coral is a classic example of a starving coral. Your rock is bare and can't even grow algae. This is not a path to do down.

I'll disagree with you a bit here. ULNS is a term over used by lots in this hobby. Just because your water is clean to grow SPS people will throw that term out there. Making use of a ULNS is not unhealthy in my opinion when you are trying to achieve a certain look. What you are saying "TCNS" and the lack of N&P is what a ULNS is all about. There is a balance in which we put the food in at tremendous amounts while exporting it out at the same time.

It all depends on how you want your corals to look in the end. While they are on the edge of starvation they are by no means unhealthy.

 

[dzhuo]

It all depends on how you want your corals to look in the end.

Sure. It's your personal choice if you want your corals to look like the one OP posted. It's also call irresponsible reef keeping with the purpose of starving the corals to achieve a point when other alternative is more feasible with the the addition of not having to starve the corals.

While they are on the edge of starvation they are by no means unhealthy.

Show me anything or anyone who would agree a starving coral is healthy coral?

Whatever your definition of ULNS, it's by no mean a natural model to follow. There is no prove or natural occurrence of coral growing in any habitat without nutrient or ultra low nutrient. The coral reef we are modeling is by no mean ULNS. In fact, it's the complete opposite.

 

[dzhuo]

Thanks for the insight. Based on what you've told me, I'm going to increase feedings a bit for the CBS, hermits, and microfauna. I am also going to target feed the corals with Reef Chili twice a day. I am eager to see the results.

Is there a reason why you don't want to just buy a few more fish and slowly ramp up the feeding?

Would you recommend I continue the use of carbon and gfo?

I would remove both. They are probably doing nothing already.

 

[iwishtofish]

Is there a reason why you don't want to just buy a few more fish and slowly ramp up the feeding?

First of all, I never was shooting for a ULNS by standard definition. I was, however, aiming for water as devoid of phosphates and nitrates as possible. Everywhere I've been reading, that was said to be the best thing for SPS corals.

I've been having trouble finding time to set up my QT for fish, much less trying to decide which might thrive in a very high flow system with little rock and an ornery coral banded shrimp.

 

[mjaustin22]

I'll be interested to find out what you come up with too help with colors, I am having a similar problem with tricolors and some others. I always thought I was starving my corals or had too much light (2 X250w mh and 2 95w vho over a 58g) and started feeding more. I didn't get any better coloration, but did get better polyp extension. This left me kind of stumped, I finally got around to testing nitrates and realized they were very high, above 20ppm, I've since been lowering that through wc and have been getting better, more rich colors as the nitrates have come down. Some of my corals and rock look very similar to yours, pale with no algae. My phos is around .01 on a hanna meter. I'm not sure if this is your problem or even mine for that matter lol but its the only thing I can come up with at the moment.

 

[cromedogg33]

Sure. It's your personal choice if you want your corals to look like the one OP posted. It's also call irresponsible reef keeping with the purpose of starving the corals to achieve a point when other alternative is more feasible with the the addition of not having to starve the corals.



Show me anything or anyone who would agree a starving coral is healthy coral?

Whatever your definition of ULNS, it's by no mean a natural model to follow. There is no prove or natural occurrence of coral growing in any habitat without nutrient or ultra low nutrient. The coral reef we are modeling is by no mean ULNS. In fact, it's the complete opposite.

Show me someone with an actual ocean in a box and then we can talk about natural settings.

We may need to look up the p04 and n03 numbers from the ocean and talk about how we as hobbiest try to achieve those numbers. I'm not sure I would call it irresponsible either but that's my opinion as well. Again ULNS is thrown around loosely with SPS.

 

[cromedogg33]

Sure. It's your personal choice if you want your corals to look like the one OP posted. It's also call irresponsible reef keeping with the purpose of starving the corals to achieve a point when other alternative is more feasible with the the addition of not having to starve the corals.



Show me anything or anyone who would agree a starving coral is healthy coral?

Whatever your definition of ULNS, it's by no mean a natural model to follow. There is no prove or natural occurrence of coral growing in any habitat without nutrient or ultra low nutrient. The coral reef we are modeling is by no mean ULNS. In fact, it's the complete opposite.

Show me someone with an actual ocean in a box and then we can talk about natural settings.

We may need to look up the p04 and n03 numbers from the ocean and talk about how we as hobbiest try to achieve those numbers.

 

[jcw]

I think there are alot of assumptions in this thread about low nutrient systems.

But I think looking at it another way is more helpful.

Your corals are bleaching.

They are losing zooxanthellae and/or the chlorophyll concentration in the zoo.

In my opinion, the lighting isn't the issue. Plenty of people grow great sps under t5 fixtures like yours.

You feed enough. I don't think that's an issue.

I think the most likely culprit for the slow loss of pigment is a relative lack of flow.

There are articles that demonstrate corals placed in 85-90 deg water doing FINE in high flow locations. And corals bleaching in low flow locations. It has to do with the higher thicker boundary layers forming around the cell membrane allowing a build up of toxic metabolites leading to less chlorophyll and less zooxanthellae.


I would, if i were you, re evaluate my flow. Forget the chaotic flow and go for high flow. Direct the flow very near the tricolor, flush the boundary layer away and see if you can reestablish the zooxanthellae in the coral.

Good luck.

 

[dzhuo]

Show me someone with an actual ocean in a box and then we can talk about natural settings.

We want water params closely match what's found in NSW. This include alk, cal, mag, pH, temp, and various other minor trace elements. We invent wave making device, propeller pump for gentle random flow because that's what's naturally happen in coral reef. We model our lighting system to the best what's found in clear shadow environment with lush coral grow. We provide sand for critters and fish where they expect them and rocks with caves for them to hide because that's how they feel comfortable.

Now you are telling me when it comes to nutrient, somehow following what's naturally occur in a coral reef is not the right thing?

Everything we do in hobby, we follow (or we try to follow) mother nature as closely as possible because that's the only successful model we can rely on. There are certainly things we can't replicate easily and probably wouldn't make sense to do it but for the majority of everything, it's the right thing to do. This include building a TCNS; not starving your corals.

 

[reefinder]

Dzhuo I agree with you a 100%

 

[cediss]

Interesting debate going on. It would seem to me that there is a bit of semantics here. One side saying nutrients are high but appear low due to rate of absorption or cycling and another saying nutrients are low.

From my studying and knowledge your both right to some extent. Ultimately scientist will tell you that the nutrients on a coral reef are low relative to surrounding water. But that doesn't mean there aren't significant amounts of organic matter, trace elements, and microscopic fauna.
When hobbyist talk of ULNS the idea is to avoid the historical problem of systems building up nitrates, turpenoids, tannins, phosphates and other contaminants. It doesn't necessarily mean that we want the tank free of foods, plankton or other nutrients needed by corals. In fact, the trick is trying to get the nutrients in but to export them before they build up enough to convert to the toxins described above.
For the record my tricolor also bleached, continues to grow at the base but remains discolored. Came from a MH system and is now in a DIY LED lit tank. Unfortunately, I think the initial bleaching came from too much light. I ran the RB at 100%. Other SPS at mid level began bleaching while those lower either did not bleach or bleached less including frags of the same colony. I have since cut the lighting in half and seen some improvement in most corals. The valida is perhaps the least improved, yet still growing.

It may in fact be a combination of factors, not just one. My nitrates and phosphates are zero also. IMHO if I had not bleached the valida with too much light in the beginning, I think it would be much better pigmented today. I think they are just slow to regain their pigments.

I have seen valida look good under t5, LED, and MH. I think we need to be more careful acclimating corals to the light. Without PAR meters it is very hard to tell how much light we are providing. I believe it is much easier to color up a browned out SPS from low light than a bleached out from excess light.
For now I will keep my valida in a lower light, keep Ca, Alk mg in ideal range. Allow nitrates to go up as high as 5 if they trend that way and still keep phosphates as low as possible. I am trying to add aminos and trace elements along with occasional coral feeds. Let's keep sharing our experiences so maybe we will figure this mystery out!
Thanks folks. I'll tag along.