STOP Selling These Species! (rant)

[CHSUB]

CHSUB, True and yes you stand correct in being responsible for the animals you keep. That being said, its much easier to care for a Golden Retriever, Cat, Parakeet, or Box Turtle. Fish are on a different end of the spectrum. The variables are far to great, and it can be very difficult to re create that eco system without loss, trial and error. Dogs and cats don't die when you treat for fleas, or not eat just because. Thats just my opinion though.

i have 2 dogs, 2 cats, and 22 fish; and i do my best for all of them. i will agree fish add another variable and i've lost more fish than dogs. however, i put all my animals on the same level; in theory at least!


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[zoomonster]

I agree with most but there's a fact in this hobby and that is its about money (like most things). For the vast majority of LFS its about making enough money to eat and stay in business. So if someone has the money someone's going to sell you the fish or coral (and many will even lie to get you to buy it). Plus I have known some people that look at tanks as a ever changing show with the attitude I buy it, enjoy it as long as it lasts and replace it with same or something else when it dies.

Most of us live and learn and there's a handful I have experimented with (I've been in reef keeping 25 years) and probably won't buy again. I'm not big on tangs (I have YB hippo and purple), triggers or most big/non reef fish so I won't go there. I will admit I stray once and a while and reattempt once in a while as tech gets better. I did try a red mandarin, with my new tank, and it did not make it despite a pretty generous pod population. I am pretty big on Anthias and I recently took a chance on a trio of large, healthy purple queens. I did finally get at least 2/3 eating and out of hiding. The 3rd is just deep in hiding and not sure its eating or not. The last time I tried purple queens was probably 15 years ago and it did not end well. However you look at it if we did not attempt to do things better the hobby would not be as advanced as it is today.

There's a lot more but just a few I have experienced/not had good luck with.

Mandarins
Hawaiian cleaner wrasse
Purple Queens
Black backed wrasse
All the cold water gobies (a lot of stores sell them and don't bother to mention they require cooler water than a typical reef)
Pretty much any damsel for aggression (basically raptors with fins).
Pretty much all clown fish other than perc/amp for aggression. Most clowns are worse than damsels (tomato, clarkii, sebae, maroon, skunk etc.)

 

[Hastened]

sure i get it, it's a hobby like golf, and i love golf. I play every chance i have and when i'm done with the golf balls i toss them in the trash; and when i done with my fish i flush them down the toil......well, maybe it's not just a hobby and we should have the responsibility to care for the animals we buy and keep; at least that's how i see it!!!!

I agree completely and I don't think anyone buys a 50 dollar fish and says can't wait until this one dies! You buy a golf ball to help you enjoy the game, you buy fish you like to enjoy the hobby.
Now everyone go clean something or test your parameters!

 

[Code4]

i have 2 dogs, 2 cats, and 22 fish; and i do my best for all of them. i will agree fish add another variable and i've lost more fish than dogs. however, i put all my animals on the same level; in theory at least!


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The dog is so cute! :lolspin:

 

[SALTYwaterDOG]

Small species tend to live about 3-5 years, naturally. Larger ones go 10 or more. The question I ask is whether all these species should be sent to every store as a matter of course---or whether some should be a special order only. I keep one of the species listed, a golden domino damsel, and have no troubles, but I have room and a rockwork specifically designed for him.

I think as a hobby we could do more to educate people about setting up. We can't stop stores from selling what comes in. But we can prepare people who want to keep marine tanks---we've tried, I know; but we do actually do some good.

Maybe if we created some 'model tank populations' for certain sizes and shapes and put them out there as a file, so that people would go shopping with a better idea what they should be looking for, and how they should set up to do that well. Like a model clown tank, with or without nem, with parameters, feeding, lighting, size, etc, rather than leaving it all 'mix and match' out of what the lfs happened to have this week.

Well said

 

[Curiousowl]

My LFS is always pushing me to order fish that are over $50...I just never do. We had a harlequin tuskfish ($160) (I didn't order it) and although it was healthy, eating like a champ and awesome to watch...it was in our tanks for over 3 months! I finally had to take 50% off it, I just wanted it to have an actual home where someone would enjoy it. Later that day someone came in and took it home to his 300g tank and has been doing great.
Powder Blue tangs, groupers, queen angels, passers, marine betta are on my list of just...no. Either they suffer from being transported or they live a short life..

 

[albano]

...
Powder Blue tangs, groupers, queen angels, passers, marine betta are on my list of just...no. Either they suffer from being transported or they live a short life..

I'm not sure that I've heard of a lot of problems with marine bettas... I would guess that my current one is at least 12 yrs old

 

[Pax20]

My 2cents... it's our responsibility to research and buy the proper fish, dog, cat for which we can provide properly. Pet stores, lfs included, are guilty of overselling to those who have more money than sense, unfortunately it's the fish and other pets that suffer.

 

[grizzlymint]

If a store tried to tell me I cant buy something because they dont think im worthy, id start calling a lawyer for discrimination. The store worker doesnt know me or anything about me, it would be bad business as well as disrespectful for them to do anything other than "recommend" certain items.

I dont think the LFS landlord cares if they told 10 people not to buy that damsel last month if theyre short on rent.

Does best buy tell you not to buy that surround system because your living room is too small or the waitress tell you that you cannot order 5 hamburgers because youll only eat 3 of them?

 

[kenpau]

If a store tried to tell me I cant buy something because they dont think im worthy, id start calling a lawyer for discrimination.

I thinks it's in the delivery, the store should be well within it's rights to 'strongly advise' against a purchase. I was in my LFS today and there was a guy who bought a Copperband Butterfly, he obviously didn't know about the species because he asked what it was and what to feed it. While the guy was looking at other fish I asked the LFS worker in the store whether it was feeding, he said it had just come out of quarantine and wasn't sure. I'm not normally a sensitive kind of bloke but I actually felt pretty sorry for this fish, it was a beautiful example of a Copperband that will most likely be dead within a month. IMO these should not be sold and if there is even the slightest hint that a customer doesn't know their care requirements then they should be strongly discouraged from buying it.

 

[that Fish Guy]

The way I see it is we are all responsible. If there is not a market for it they will not sale it. Education is the only way. It is up to the consumer, us, to know what we are buying. Do not impulse buy! Period! I went to my LFS, almost 4 hours one way, to get a male green mandarin. The store employee tried to explain to me that the one I wanted was a female. Told me it did not have the long top fin of a male. I pointed out to the newbie employee that the females are much smaller, and that the "topfin" was simple lying down on his back. I hope he learned something. And my new mandarin is now fat. Thanks to Paul's feeder, copepods and the fact that this little guy loves tiny bits of clam! Just lucky on that.

It would be great if all LFS were in it first for the love of the hobby. Not the dollar. Well it is late, hopefully I have not offended anyone in my tired state,

Shelley

You must understand that the LFS (Like any Business) is a Business.

They must make money or they will be out of business.

Look at how many LFS (At least in my area) fail.

Why because they are run by Hobbyists with no business sense and they get run into the ground.

Yes, it is great to be a hobbyist but at the end of the day the old saying goes Love Doesn't Pay the Bills.

So please keep that in mind.

 

[that Fish Guy]

Solution: it's the smart phone age, so there is no excuse for not searching info on an impulse buy while standing at the LFS. There should be a sign in every LFS that says "research all information given to you today online while you wait". That promotes reputable stores, knowledgable staff, and informed consumers while eliminating impulse buys and shady business practices.

That is not going to happen.

If they put up a sign like that people would also be researching the price and then not buy anything since (Unless they are extremely impatient) the LFS charges more than places online do.

 

[that Fish Guy]

Wow.............. when did having a fish tank, just mean..... having a fish tank. Your either enjoy it as a hobby or you don't. You either like aquariums or you like golf, You either have tons of cash to throw down on an ELOS system or your poor and you have a 55 gallon you got from Petco, you either have FOWLR or live corals, You either have LED's or metal halides, sump or no sump, sand or bare bottom, R/O or tap water, damsels to cycle a tank or fish less cycle, mandarin dragonet that eats pellets or mandarin dragonet that is starving, keeping tangs or getting yelled at for having them, additives that work or additives that are just snake oil, fish that should be sold or fish that should be banned. Jesus..... it almost makes the hobby unenjoyable really.

I thought this forum was about learning how to keep a successful marine aquarium and enjoying it?

Spend more time enjoying the hobby and less time trying to re-invent it......

Good Point.

I am glad that you posted this.

 

[that Fish Guy]

If a store tried to tell me I cant buy something because they dont think im worthy, id start calling a lawyer for discrimination. The store worker doesnt know me or anything about me, it would be bad business as well as disrespectful for them to do anything other than "recommend" certain items.

I dont think the LFS landlord cares if they told 10 people not to buy that damsel last month if theyre short on rent.

Does best buy tell you not to buy that surround system because your living room is too small or the waitress tell you that you cannot order 5 hamburgers because youll only eat 3 of them?

Well the Difference (And a big one at that is) they are selling living animals not inanimate objects.

It is not right to kill living things just because you want them and have no regard for life.

 

[grizzlymint]

What is "right" and wrong is very subjective. That cheeseburger maybe inanimate now..... point is they would have an impossible task of staying in business if it was their responsibility if you can take care of an animal.

Guess you should never be allowed to buy coral either.
Guarenteed that fish guy has a coral graveyard from alk swings or new lights or some other random factor like a power outtage.

We kill things in our hobby. Lets stop pretending we dont just because we are on a forum.

 

[LauraGreenImp]

What is "right" and wrong is very subjective. That cheeseburger maybe inanimate now..... point is they would have an impossible task of staying in business if it was their responsibility if you can take care of an animal.

Guess you should never be allowed to buy coral either.
Guarenteed that fish guy has a coral graveyard from alk swings or new lights or some other random factor like a power outtage.

We kill things in our hobby. Lets stop pretending we dont just because we are on a forum.

Cheeseburger. *perfect example*! I was raised on a working farm, we went to the (2hr drive away) "˜grocery' for spices, sugar, salt, flour *only*. Everything else we ate we harvested, killed, hunted, etc. Now I'm vegan, bc I can afford to be.

I was VERY STUPID when I made the leap from 40+ yrs of FW tanks to SW.

I listened to very bad advice, and didn't do my due diligence. Although I am an elderly geek & well versed in the net, I didn't even *think* abt going to a reef forum.

I ended up w 150g *tall* (super hard to clean/maintain physically), *no sump*, cheap/poor lighting, an itty bitty *hippo tang*, yellow T, foxface. For 4 yrs, I watched many, many other creatures die w the exception of the OG "˜Terrible Trio'. 3yrs ago - a miracle. New neighbor *just happened* to be superX SW hobbyist who was starting tiny reef shop w his buddy (on the side, they have "˜real' jobs).

Now I have Kessils, sump, been lurking here for a while. My neighbor & his fam have keys to our house, reef life is better here. All this costs $$$$, though, and I'm not made of money, so it's improved slowly.

Everyone on here is human, IME humans are kinda stupid. I understand why those w vast experience get frustrated w those of us who make poor decisions, then come on here begging for help.

And what about my Hippo Tang??? He's 6" now - apparently, he grows an inch a year. Pretty soon my "˜Terrible Trio' will outgrow this tank...

I wish humans were more responsible across the board, but most of us are just murderers in one way or another.

Regardless, I thought this was an interesting thread w many valid opinions - so, thanks OP!

 

[Bent]

What is "right" and wrong is very subjective. That cheeseburger maybe inanimate now..... point is they would have an impossible task of staying in business if it was their responsibility if you can take care of an animal.

Guess you should never be allowed to buy coral either.
Guarenteed that fish guy has a coral graveyard from alk swings or new lights or some other random factor like a power outtage.

We kill things in our hobby. Lets stop pretending we dont just because we are on a forum.

Indeed.

I’d hate to see my body count, all for the sake of....because caging animals in a glass box is fun.

 

[MurphyLong]

I'm glad this thread was brought back from the dead, because I recently posted a comment on another thread about a place about 90 minutes from my house that I drive to for fish/coral, simply because of their ethics, over any of the other 6 or 7 Fish Shops closer to me.

My first time in, I was engaged in conversation by an employee. He wasn't interrogating me in an aggressive manner, just simply asking about my tank. How big? How long have I been in the hobby? What kind of fish/coral/inverts do I have? What do I use for lighting? I initially thought he was trying to set me up to sell me stuff, but as I was just walking around and loving how amazing every single creature he had looked, he said "Sorry about all the questions, we just want to make sure people don't make misinformed purchases, and we won't sell someone that won't thrive in their environment."

Now, I was initially kinda miffed, thinking "Who the heck does this guy think he is, telling me that he's gonna decide what I can't buy??" Then I let it sink in, and he was doing what I just WISH someone had done when I started this hobby 15 years ago. They look out for their livestock, and that's EXACTLY why I'm going back there this weekend. I had visited another shop near them the first time I went, and they had a 20 gallon tank with at least 50 baby clowns in it, selling them for $8 a piece. I was so mad about it, I just left and went back to the other place that very clearly cares.

 

[Zalick]

.

Now, I was initially kinda miffed, thinking "Who the heck does this guy think he is, telling me that he's gonna decide what I can't buy??" Then I let it sink in, and he was doing what I just WISH someone had done when I started this hobby 15 years ago. They look out for their livestock, and that's EXACTLY why I'm going back there this weekend. I had visited another shop near them the first time I went, and they had a 20 gallon tank with at least 50 baby clowns in it, selling them for $8 a piece. I was so mad about it, I just left and went back to the other place that very clearly cares.

If anyone has ever tried to purchase a pure bred dog, or rescue for that matter, they usually have an application process and sometimes ask for referrals. We don't bat an eye at that because its a mammal/dog and we love them. Fish on the other hand....

We have a new LFS in Portland that practices sustainable practices to the best of its ability. I know a few importers and their survival rates from catch to living in the LFS is about 80%-90% based upon the harvesters they use.

As an avid scuba diver, I spend a few weeks every year diving tropical reefs all over the world. In general, the aquarium trade is extremely destructive on the reefs and it breaks my heart. I am personally torn between my love for the natural reef and my love for the hobby. If we all are willing to pay more for tank bred fish, the tank bred program will continue advancing and some day we may be able to get 99% of our fish/coral/inverts as wholly tank bred.

As a side note: In Oregon if you purchase a puppy and fail to feed it the proper food so it starves to death, or if you have 40 cats in your house that are malnourished and living in squalid conditions, you can get charged with animal neglect II. Food for thought...

 

[OrionN]

We are living in the information age. The information are out there for those who looks. Most LFS are out there to sell fish.
If you are willing to spend 4 hrs of your 8 hrs work day to do hard work so that you check can be cut by 50% then you have the tight to criticize LFS owner about selling fish that people want to buy.

There are people who keep on buying things that they cannot keep, but most will do it a time or two, then either learn or get out of the hobby.