Sustaining good plankton levels.

[MARINECRITTERS]

You guys are talking about a system that sounds exactly what I've been brainstorming in my head for quite a long time. I've done a lot of reading and research and came to many of the same conclusions that have been mentioned here.

Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to actually build and implement this system yet. I'm stuck renting a house for the next few years and I have small children so there is no way I can set up a complex aquarium system.

The system that I was envisioning would be skimmerless, have an oversized sump based on the duplex sump concept discussed at length on the "advanced topics" section of reef central and would be fitted with an oversized remote deep sand bed. The water would hit an algae turf scrubber for a final polish before returning back to the display. I might even try to include a sea-grass/macro algae tank into the mix. I'd try to give the sump area a total volume of at least 2-3x the display volume.

The main idea with the sump would be to try to replicate as many different biotopes as I could with the assumption that different biotopes would add something to the overall stability of the system. I'm assuming that you would get different flora and fauna growing in a dark region with high flow from a dark region with low flow, from a high light area with high flow, etc.

Anyways, I'm extremely interested in what you guys are doing. I'll be here lurking and reading...

Hi, Hopefully someday you can setup a NPS tank but I have a few tips.
First off, most tanks ( as of right now ) can not support nps corals with what you have listed but something you can do is culture your own phytoplankton which intern feeds zooplankton and other corals in your tank. Since you will probably have mass amounts of life creating waste then I would recommend a bio pellet reactor, it keep nitrates very low and supplys a small amount of food.
Lastly, with all of the animals taking up oxygen ( including bacteria, plankton, fish, etc ) a skimmer is necessary for oxygenation, you can just run it low so it does not skim out anything.
Hope this helps.

 

[herring_fish]

(1998)


My Algal Turf Scrubber(ATS) takes up both nitrates and phosphates while providing oxygen levels that approach the saturation point, without filtering back out the foods that I just put in the tank. I have used one for about 20 years. I built my tanks with NPS corals as the primary object of my efforts.

Of course, little was known about this class of inhabitants so I only had success with the easier ones. We called them filter feeders back then. I bombed the tank with tons of powdered foods that were made available to me by the suppliers as a beta tester so I had a little more success than some others and I had a few articles publish on my results.

I am just commenting here about nutrient control. I have found that an ATS system is only one option but it is a viable one. It must be well designed, properly sized and lit. Skimmers work great as well and there are many other choices that also work.

Some guys use lanthanum chloride for there phosphates. Others use GSO or other similar products. Nitrates can be controlled with bacteria in deep sand beds(DSB) and reverse flow (RDSB) or large amounts of live rock in the tank and/or in a sump. There are drip and there are sulfur denitrification systems. Of course there is carbon source dosing like vodka or vinegar. Then there are the grasses and mangrove plants the help.

These are just the ones that I have messed with so far. There are many many others that I didn't mention and more that are on the way. Most of them have their up sides and their down sides so there are lots of people that will argue ad nauseam about why one system is the better or best and why another doesn't work much at all. I keep coming back to the ATS because it works for me, my personality and my setup. You might not like it.

You have to do your research and go with what works for you. NPS corals are not for the faint of hart so again, do your research.

 

[MARINECRITTERS]

Update!

 

[MARINECRITTERS]

(1998)


My Algal Turf Scrubber(ATS) takes up both nitrates and phosphates while providing oxygen levels that approach the saturation point, without filtering back out the foods that I just put in the tank. I have used one for about 20 years. I built my tanks with NPS corals as the primary object of my efforts.

Of course, little was known about this class of inhabitants so I only had success with the easier ones. We called them filter feeders back then. I bombed the tank with tons of powdered foods that were made available to me by the suppliers as a beta tester so I had a little more success than some others and I had a few articles publish on my results.

I am just commenting here about nutrient control. I have found that an ATS system is only one option but it is a viable one. It must be well designed, properly sized and lit. Skimmers work great as well and there are many other choices that also work.

Some guys use lanthanum chloride for there phosphates. Others use GSO or other similar products. Nitrates can be controlled with bacteria in deep sand beds(DSB) and reverse flow (RDSB) or large amounts of live rock in the tank and/or in a sump. There are drip and there are sulfur denitrification systems. Of course there is carbon source dosing like vodka or vinegar. Then there are the grasses and mangrove plants the help.

These are just the ones that I have messed with so far. There are many many others that I didn't mention and more that are on the way. Most of them have their up sides and their down sides so there are lots of people that will argue ad nauseam about why one system is the better or best and why another doesn't work much at all. I keep coming back to the ATS because it works for me, my personality and my setup. You might not like it.

You have to do your research and go with what works for you. NPS corals are not for the faint of hart so again, do your research.

Is there any chance you could post some pictures of your algae scrubber, along with your overall system?

 

[herring_fish]

While I love to write about my system, I was hesitant to hijack the thread but I looked back to confirm that this is yours so here goes.

This is my old tank of the 90's. The cabinet and stand is now retired. It had no sump but had the Algal Turf Scrubber (ATS) and all of the lighting under a top that is 2 inches in the front and 6 inches in the back. I am working on a new cabinet with a lot more room in it. The same old ATS is placed about a foot up in the air for a stronger splash.

The first sketch [below] shows, in dark blue, the way that the water will fill the tray at first. The light blue indicates how the water extends to the left, just before the tray becomes unstable enough to tip and dump the water into the tank.

The second sketch shows how water flows down and across the tray once it tips. This causes a rushing surge of water motion through the algae inside the tray before it cascades into the tank. The third sketch shows that, as the tray springs back to its starting position, the remaining water rolls back down the tray to cause turbulence that further helps to prevent clumping and stimulates healthy growth.

I purchased a few 6" by 6 foot Acrylic tubes for another project that is on hold. I decided to use one for a Plankton Tower. I started growing rotifers and had success but was advised to feed very often throughout the day to increase population density.

I also needed to do water changes to draw off the waste and excess nutrient load. This made me think about automation. It is something that I have always been interested it. When I get interested in a new hobby, I fold it back into the reef tank.

I plan to get 6 or more of the towers working along the wall of the garage so that I can still park my cars. This is just an experiment, mostly just for the fun of it.

I could have used solenoids to switch the work of the pump for water changes but the tubing for liquid food would get clogged at such low distributed flow rates. I decided to build a 2 axis robot as a project. I don't know if I can get it to working in practice but the fun is in trying. I just got it fully working on the bench. So far, so good.

Ok, on the left is the 130 gallon display tank. Above that is the ATS. Water goes out to the 55 gallon sump in the garage via gravity. In the refrigerator that is shown on the far right, is liquid phyto on the second shelf. Another peristaltic pump pulls the phyto out of the container and puts it in a feeding tube. Water is then drawn out of the sump with a peristaltic pump, shown above the fridge. This water flushes the feeding tube of phyto while adding about a quart of water to the tower.

The water line of the towers are set up to be the same height as the top of the ATS so when water is added to a tower, it flows back to the display tank, again using gravity.

The robot that is shown above the towers, moves along a rail to each station and it's boom with the feeding tube attached, drops down into the tower to deposit the liquids. Then the boom retracts and the carriage moves on to the next station.

I have all of the parts working separately. I could probably get it all installed in a few weeks but I have a lot of other stuff going on so it might be a long long time before it all gets functioning together. Again this is just for fun and I don't suggest any part of it for anyone.

 

[MARINECRITTERS]

While I love to write about my system, I was hesitant to hijack the thread but I looked back to confirm that this is yours so here goes.

This is my old tank of the 90's. The cabinet and stand is now retired. It had no sump but had the Algal Turf Scrubber (ATS) and all of the lighting under a top that is 2 inches in the front and 6 inches in the back. I am working on a new cabinet with a lot more room in it. The same old ATS is placed about a foot up in the air for a stronger splash.

The first sketch [below] shows, in dark blue, the way that the water will fill the tray at first. The light blue indicates how the water extends to the left, just before the tray becomes unstable enough to tip and dump the water into the tank.

The second sketch shows how water flows down and across the tray once it tips. This causes a rushing surge of water motion through the algae inside the tray before it cascades into the tank. The third sketch shows that, as the tray springs back to its starting position, the remaining water rolls back down the tray to cause turbulence that further helps to prevent clumping and stimulates healthy growth.

I purchased a few 6" by 6 foot Acrylic tubes for another project that is on hold. I decided to use one for a Plankton Tower. I started growing rotifers and had success but was advised to feed very often throughout the day to increase population density.

I also needed to do water changes to draw off the waste and excess nutrient load. This made me think about automation. It is something that I have always been interested it. When I get interested in a new hobby, I fold it back into the reef tank.

I plan to get 6 or more of the towers working along the wall of the garage so that I can still park my cars. This is just an experiment, mostly just for the fun of it.

I could have used solenoids to switch the work of the pump for water changes but the tubing for liquid food would get clogged at such low distributed flow rates. I decided to build a 2 axis robot as a project. I don't know if I can get it to working in practice but the fun is in trying. I just got it fully working on the bench. So far, so good.

Ok, on the left is the 130 gallon display tank. Above that is the ATS. Water goes out to the 55 gallon sump in the garage via gravity. In the refrigerator that is shown on the far right, is liquid phyto on the second shelf. Another peristaltic pump pulls the phyto out of the container and puts it in a feeding tube. Water is then drawn out of the sump with a peristaltic pump, shown above the fridge. This water flushes the feeding tube of phyto while adding about a quart of water to the tower.

The water line of the towers are set up to be the same height as the top of the ATS so when water is added to a tower, it flows back to the display tank, again using gravity.

The robot that is shown above the towers, moves along a rail to each station and it's boom with the feeding tube attached, drops down into the tower to deposit the liquids. Then the boom retracts and the carriage moves on to the next station.

I have all of the parts working separately. I could probably get it all installed in a few weeks but I have a lot of other stuff going on so it might be a long long time before it all gets functioning together. Again this is just for fun and I don't suggest any part of it for anyone.

You have a very well thought out system, with the amount of phyto you would be producing you would either be wasting a lot of it or adding a lot of it to your aquarium, how do you deal with the nutrients?
Algae scrubbers are great so I believe you have them under control, do you run a skimmer?
Do you have any real photos of your system?, it would be interesting to see algae growth and other things that we can't see from a virtual photo.

Now, to get on topic about the corals themselves.
Lately I have been dong some research on food types that azoox corals eat and their is definitely a chance we are feeding them the wrong types of food.
Nannochloropsis has been stated for being hard to consume and digest, so I believe Tetraselmis is a better option to culture. I have come across many articles talking about many non photosynthetic corals using symbiosis to produce food ( bacterias, algae's, etc ), for example corals and other animals near hydrothermal vents use bacteria to convert harmful chemicals into a food source, I have reason to believe we are missing some sort of bacteria or chemical for these corals.

 

[herring_fish]

There is nothing to show yet. I don't use the successful methods that others have demonstrated to work for azoox corals.

This is part of an effort to have high levels of feeding but lower the nutrient load in the display tank by trying to bring large amounts of live zooplankton to the reef tank instead of dead.

This is a very long term project and I am not ready to starve a lot of corals by putting them into this unstable tank until everything is ready. All too often, I even have to disconnect the auto-top-off system with its two part dosing pumps while running tests of one part of the system or another so I don't even have a lot of SPS's. I just have some of the easier corals, LPS zoanthids and mushrooms. My research and planning is way out in front of my implementing so far.

The different strains of zooplankton cultures, like rotifers and brine shrimp are slated for the individual tubes. Since the water circulates trough the towers and back to the tank, each one brings about 2 or 3 gallons of plankton water, at whatever the density that tube has at the time per day. With that water, comes the unused phyto and/ or other foods as well as the waste, returning to the display tank where it is processed.

Providing lots of live plankton, instead of dead, is the main strategy of this system. Preliminary test runs indicate that zooplankton can be easily cultured in this manor but I don't think that phyto will continue to run without crashing in my system so I buy dead phyto. Contamination is much less of a problem with zooplankton.

I think that the plankton guys would call mine an "open system" since it gets somewhat fresh water added all the time. The fact that the farm is an "open system" in a "closed (reef) system" means that contaminants are brought back to the cultures from the display tank with every feeding. That is why I don't grow phyto. Does that make any since at all?

The scrubber has a lot of capacity to remove nutrients but I am converting away from a bacteria based cleaning system that I ran a test on so the ATS is not growing algae right now. Nutrients are too low right now. Again, nothing to show.

Although it work great for me back then, I haven't use a skimmer since the early 90's. I wanted to keep the food in suspension as long as possible. I just put a sock full of carbon in the dump tray but I don't force the water through it because I don't want it to become a plankton trap/filter.

As a side note: I have started to play around with putting a very low volume UV sterilizer in a 40 micron bag to keep the rotifers from getting fried while killing the ciliates which are abundant in my system, both in the display tank and in the towers. I get more ciliates with certain phyto formulations than others. I will see if this effects my small sponges. Right now, I find that dosing phyto greatly improves sponge growth. What I don't know is whether they like the phyto directly or they like what eats it. The UV test while increasing the dosing should help fill in a few blanks.

As you say, "to get (back) on topic", I don't know squat about your last paragraph so I will spot typing here.

 

[MARINECRITTERS]

Thanks for clarifying, also this is a discussion forum so the topic can involves everyone contributing to it, feel free to help do research on the topics brought up.

With all of the extra LIVE life being added to your tank your oxygen levels will be depleted tremendously, I think it would be a great idea to run your skimmer for the added oxygen, ( you can run it low so it does not skim anything out ), although depending on your scrubber size you may not need to add it.

 

[herring_fish]

I sold the skimmer back then. The scrubber is 48 by 6 inches and 3 inches at the deep end. One of the big advantages of a scrubber is that the dissolved oxygen levels are normally just under the saturation point. Additionally, dropping 2 gallons of water, 1 foot every 30 seconds causes even more air exchange in a splash that reaches the bottom of the tank which probably doesn't bring the O2 levels any higher but allows other gasses to normalize.

I am hoping that a true feeding response to live plankton will improve the chances of some corals flourishing. Perhaps it is one of those missing factors that allude us all.

Non-traumatic (NT) pumps could be another limiting factor. I don't know how much plankton will be effected by the pumps. I have a NT pump designed but I do not have the time to build it.

 

[MARINECRITTERS]

Another Update!
My Phytoplankton culture tanks are now finished, I went with two rubber maid containers ( two ten gallon containers ). It works by having two full containers of phytoplankton, after a week or so when they get dark I will open both valves and they will drain until each container has half its contents, then each container will be topped of with new saltwater with a certain amount of fertilizer in them. They will be up and fully running once the phytoplankton comes ( nano ) in the mail. Also the lights I have for the phyto are two 50w LED's. With my sump I have removed the external pump and put in a internal pump I had laying around, the external pump was too strong, the pump was two hundred dollars so I will get refunded, what do you guys think I should spend the money on?, I am thinking of spending it on a denitrification reactor, specifically the Deltec NFP-509 Nitrate Filter. It will keep my nitrates down from the amount of food present in the water while supplying a carbon source for bacteria ( bacteria - small plankton - larger plankton - filter feeding animals ). The idea of the nitrate reactor for my tank came up when reading about the DyMiCo system ( it is basically a refugium/nitrate reactor/calcium reactor ), they claim that it is the future of marine aquariums, which enables you to keep all filter feeding organisms. Speaking about the DyMiCo system, do any of you guys have any info on it? I can't find much on it or figure out how the system really works, do any of you have a system like that on your tanks?
Thanks

 

[herring_fish]

That looks nice and clean and simple.

Is the Deltec NFP-509 Nitrate Filter designed for your main tank or for your plankton farm?

What are you going to do about phosphates? That is what I am dealing with right now. As I said before, I am not growing any algae in the ATS because the nitrates are too low...I thing. I don't have any other filtration, just aeration

I was turning over the rocks last night and found that some parts of them were covered with short, thin, white hair like bacteria about a quarter inch long or better. It waves back and forth with the water motion.

Than may be what is doing the nutrient control. I have been adding concentrated phyto, Perhaps that has something to do with it.

Side note update. I used the UV sterilizer in the plankton tower. The 40 micron bag filtered out a lot of the junk so the water got very clean but then, what I think is bacteria didn't get effected enough with this little unit so I moved it to the main tank.

Then I discovered that Reed makes live phyto. I don't know why I overlooked this fact. It costs more but I bought some right away and sold my UV sterilizer.

I will dose it in both the plankton farm and main tank.

 

[MARINECRITTERS]

That looks nice and clean and simple.

Is the Deltec NFP-509 Nitrate Filter designed for your main tank or for your plankton farm?

What are you going to do about phosphates? That is what I am dealing with right now. As I said before, I am not growing any algae in the ATS because the nitrates are too low...I thing. I don't have any other filtration, just aeration

I was turning over the rocks last night and found that some parts of them were covered with short, thin, white hair like bacteria about a quarter inch long or better. It waves back and forth with the water motion.

Than may be what is doing the nutrient control. I have been adding concentrated phyto, Perhaps that has something to do with it.

Side note update. I used the UV sterilizer in the plankton tower. The 40 micron bag filtered out a lot of the junk so the water got very clean but then, what I think is bacteria didn't get effected enough with this little unit so I moved it to the main tank.

Then I discovered that Reed makes live phyto. I don't know why I overlooked this fact. It costs more but I bought some right away and sold my UV sterilizer.

I will dose it in both the plankton farm and main tank.

The deltec reactor will be used on the main tank, the benefits of it are being able to add mass amounts of food to the tank while maintaining low nutrient levels. The reactor uses a bacteria contained within the "vessel" which are carbon dosed ( fed ) using alcohol, they consume the nitrate.

Phosphates in my aquarium are undetectable, most likely due to the scrubber. If they ever got uncontrollable I could use granular ferric oxide.
To be honest I think you should culture your own phytoplankton on a small scale, it will be way cheaper and you will actually now you are getting good quality phyto. If you choose to do this use a good quality fertilizer ( not miracle grow but f/2 formula ).

I have some cool photos at about 500x zoom on my microscope, it is a picture of a scleronephthya, but something I noticed are these small brown creatures similar looking to zooxanthellae, could this be a symbiotic bacteria that we are just dismissing?
Although it may just be colour pigmentations. Anyone know?

 

[herring_fish]

Yea...I should grow my own phyto. I am just too apprehensive right now. I have my hands full, just getting my zoo farm up and running.
!? IF ?! I get that finished, I might go to the next step. I have given it a lot of thought. I just haven't plotted a clear path for my situation.

I have a friend that sells a lot of phyto and is thinking of going with the vertical towers like mine for phyto but he would use new salt water instead of return water from the main tank . He doesn't find it hard to manage but I'm just a scaredy cat.

 

[SantaMonica]

I tend to think the overall limiting factor of nps growth is just the quantity of food. All accounts I've seen of nps tanks seem to be far short of natural amounts of food.

 

[MARINECRITTERS]

Update time!
So with the deltec nitrate filter, I have chosen not to buy it but make my own.
The reason for this is pretty simple, I can make one just as good for a quarter of the price. First off, I had a broken bio pellet laying on the floor in the fish room, so I cut the cracked bottom off and sanded it down.
Then I purchased a new bottom for one dollar from the acrylic store, I also sealed it with weld on 16. After that I got some adapters for the included barb fittings on the reactor to accommodate some 1/4 tubing.

I added a small internal filter to power the nitrate filter, it only costed me 12 dollars from petsmart. It turns out the filter was just powerful enough to give a fast drip to the exit line of the nitrate filter, which is good. Lastly I added a dosing pump to it so I can automate carbon dosing. The filter uses a simple bio media, which seems to do the trick for most.
For carbon dosing I am using vinegar, I understand most use ethanol or vodka but from what I hear cyano bacteria is accustom to it. Vinegar grows a good strain of bacteria, for the most part without nuisances. The vinegar is pure white, distilled and 5% acetate.
For all of you who don't know how a nitrate filter works, I will teach you.

The filter utilizes a media which is a great home for bacteria ( medias include sulphur, ceramic beads, etc ), the bacteria will consume nutrients out of the water but the carbon dosing allows them to multiply/grow faster which means less nutrients.

I will probably wait about a month before I start carbon dosing, so I can allow the media to mature, do you guys think I should seed it?
Another new thing that I am working on is a plankton grow out tank/cylinder, which is attached to the aquarium, I have some blueprints which I will show in the photos below.
It works by using a large cylinder, in my case a large ABS cylinder, inside it contains two filter meshes to keep the plankton and what not inside.
There will also be eggcrate inside the cylinder to act as a home to the plankton. The water flow throughout this thing will be very slow ( nitrate filter slow ).
Water will enter the top and flush into the bottom, it will flow through the cylinder, supplying oxygen and food to the plankton, it will then exit through the top. The tubing will also be 1/4 inch. There will be an automatic feeding line adding phytoplankton and other small foods to the cylinder.
Inside I am not going to use a light, for one it is a completely opaque container and maybe more natural food will grow in the dark. What do you guys think about this?
Keep you posted

 

[MARINECRITTERS]

Pictures

 

[MARINECRITTERS]

A shout out to all reefers with nps tanks.
Feel free to post pictures of your system.

 

[MARINECRITTERS]

bump

 

[MARINECRITTERS]

Could we get some nps tank owners to show off their tanks and filtration schemes.

Sorry to sound desperate,

 

[SantaMonica]

Well I have one in the planning, but nothing yet...