MARINECRITTERS
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What do you have planned? equipment wise
Sustaining good plankton levels.
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What do you have planned? equipment wise
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Well I think I'm going to start with a table top tank for a dendronephthya in a circular gyre with an upflow algae scrubber. Feeding will be either by wine cooler and peri pump, or dry feeder like here...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21151317&postcount=7
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21151317&postcount=7
MARINECRITTERS
New member
I have come across something that is so obvious to me that I completely dismissed it, detritus. Detritus is undissolved material from the decomposition of organic remains. It often settles on the ocean bottom, where it provides an important food source for scavengers such as brittle stars, sea cucumbers, and amphipods. It also Provides food for many filter feeding organisms when it is drifting in open water. Marine snow has been known to be very important for filter feeding animals, what is it? basically free floating detritus ( along with enzymes, bacteria, etc ).
In the average aquarium we try to remove as much of this substance as possible, whether it is through mechanical filters, like filter socks and protein skimmers or just being siphoned out. Our aquariums for the most part, detritus free in ratio to the amount present in the ocean.
The reason we try to remove it is because it breaks down into ammonia, then nitrite, then nitrate. So the question comes up, how can we have detritus filled aquariums without dealing with nitrate? I have figured out ( in my mind ) the best filter combo to solve it, Carbon dosed nitrate reactor and a algae scrubber. The reactor utilizes bacteria to combat nitrate and the scrubber removes other nutrients such as phosphate.
Right now my sump has tons of detritus accumulating in it, every week when I clean the scrubber it becomes water born ( free floating ) giving corals the chance to consume it.
Also I have no detectable nitrate or phosphate in the system, I have tried multiple test kits and they all give me similar answers.
In the average aquarium we try to remove as much of this substance as possible, whether it is through mechanical filters, like filter socks and protein skimmers or just being siphoned out. Our aquariums for the most part, detritus free in ratio to the amount present in the ocean.
The reason we try to remove it is because it breaks down into ammonia, then nitrite, then nitrate. So the question comes up, how can we have detritus filled aquariums without dealing with nitrate? I have figured out ( in my mind ) the best filter combo to solve it, Carbon dosed nitrate reactor and a algae scrubber. The reactor utilizes bacteria to combat nitrate and the scrubber removes other nutrients such as phosphate.
Right now my sump has tons of detritus accumulating in it, every week when I clean the scrubber it becomes water born ( free floating ) giving corals the chance to consume it.
Also I have no detectable nitrate or phosphate in the system, I have tried multiple test kits and they all give me similar answers.
bues0022
New member
I just read this thread for the first time.
I'm a little surprised that I actually came to the same conclusion as the previous post during the planning stages of my NPS tank. I agree completely, we cannot be pulling out nutrients via skimmers with a NPS tank. We should be attempting to remove the dissolved nutrients, not the particulate nutrients. That way, any food available to the corals is in the water column as much as possible.
My tank filtration ideas is exactly the same as what you stated: ATS scrubber with a nitrate reactor. However, it seems as though you are dosing vinegar into the scrubber?
Marinecritters - you commented on my thread on feeding NPS idea a few weeks back, and it looks like I am essentially attempting the rotifer farm that has been discussed in this thread.
In my opinion, I think in addition to quantity of food, it is quality. A good friend of mine breeds clownfish, and he sees considerable difference in his fry when feeding quality food over sheer quantity. As an anology, think of dog food: I could feed my dog a whole bunch of bottom-shelf food, or a third of that quantity of top-shelf (which is what I actually do right now). I see considerable difference in my dog's coat, her energy level, and consistency of the nuggets left in my yard with the good food.
Culturing live rotifers to dose the tank I think is one big key. I'll skip the phyto culture, and concentrate on the rotifers. I'm working on an open system similar to what was described earlier, but attempting to use overflow to put the food into the tank thereby reducing the trauma to them on their way to the tank.
Great discussion! I'll definitely stay tuned in, and hope to show my setup when I'm up and running. (working on buying a house right now, that dampens the tank progress!)
I'm a little surprised that I actually came to the same conclusion as the previous post during the planning stages of my NPS tank. I agree completely, we cannot be pulling out nutrients via skimmers with a NPS tank. We should be attempting to remove the dissolved nutrients, not the particulate nutrients. That way, any food available to the corals is in the water column as much as possible.
My tank filtration ideas is exactly the same as what you stated: ATS scrubber with a nitrate reactor. However, it seems as though you are dosing vinegar into the scrubber?
Marinecritters - you commented on my thread on feeding NPS idea a few weeks back, and it looks like I am essentially attempting the rotifer farm that has been discussed in this thread.
In my opinion, I think in addition to quantity of food, it is quality. A good friend of mine breeds clownfish, and he sees considerable difference in his fry when feeding quality food over sheer quantity. As an anology, think of dog food: I could feed my dog a whole bunch of bottom-shelf food, or a third of that quantity of top-shelf (which is what I actually do right now). I see considerable difference in my dog's coat, her energy level, and consistency of the nuggets left in my yard with the good food.
Culturing live rotifers to dose the tank I think is one big key. I'll skip the phyto culture, and concentrate on the rotifers. I'm working on an open system similar to what was described earlier, but attempting to use overflow to put the food into the tank thereby reducing the trauma to them on their way to the tank.
Great discussion! I'll definitely stay tuned in, and hope to show my setup when I'm up and running. (working on buying a house right now, that dampens the tank progress!)
herring_fish
Crazy Designer
First, I have an Algal Turf Scrubber (ATS). When I started my tank back up, I fed heavily so I got a build up of detritus that was quite unsightly but in a few months, it was processed so that it is no longer visible. Bacteria broke it down. The ATS took care of the nutrient release.
Now, I tell the story below, over and over so for those that have heard it before, please excuse the broken record.
More than 20 years ago, I came to the same conclusion except for the nitrate reactor. I had used a skimmer but was interested in filter feeders, the lower level precursors of NPS.
I took out the skimmer and all other mechanical filtration. I had some great success for about 10 years.(no dendros) I stocked the tank with as much bottom shelf food as I could get my hands on and the high powered ATS handled it with no problem. I even added fish emulsion fertilizer when things ran too lean.
Never the less, after I moved and took some time off, I lost faith in the ATS's ability to do the whole job by itself. I did lots of research and designed all kinds of denitrification chambers. I still have a ton of sulfur pellets.
I installed a sump with an 8 inch deep sand bed and filled the rest of a 55 gallon tank with lots of coral rubble. This was for a 130 gallon display tank. I also dosed vodka for a short time.
Despite heavy feeding, my nitrates fell so low that the algae scrubber starved. It stopped growing algae and over about a year, my phosphates began to rise to unacceptable levels. It has mean suggested that you need a ratio of 16:1 for proper growth for export.
I bought product that absorbs the phosphates in the short run. I kept my deep sand bed but got rid of the coral rubble in an effort to cut down on the habitat for bacteria.
I am actually dosing nitrates (KNO3 Stump Remover) but I am starting slowly. I hope to get my ATS back to growing algae again soon. My nitrates and phosphates are both low but algae isn't growing yet.
Now, I am definitely not saying that a nitrate reactor is a bad idea but if you are using an algae scrubber remember this cautionary tail...be careful and use it only when your nitrates get high. Bacteria in the reactor may out-compete for the nitrates that the ATS needs.
My first move would be to make the scrubber stronger...1. More light, (perhaps adding reflectors) 2. More screen area, (perhaps going two sided if you don't have more room.) and/or 3. Better water flow (more water moving over the screen and/or more turbulence to agitate the algae for better growth.) You wouldn't put your starter nano-tank skimmer and put it on a big NPS tank would you?
Then, if you add the nitrate reactor, use it like medicine. I personally feel that an ATS works well for an NPS tank because the food can stay in the water column longer. Properly designed, it is simple and powerful. It is not the only good system that works well but I have found that it works for me. You just have to get or build a good one.
Now, I tell the story below, over and over so for those that have heard it before, please excuse the broken record.
More than 20 years ago, I came to the same conclusion except for the nitrate reactor. I had used a skimmer but was interested in filter feeders, the lower level precursors of NPS.
I took out the skimmer and all other mechanical filtration. I had some great success for about 10 years.(no dendros) I stocked the tank with as much bottom shelf food as I could get my hands on and the high powered ATS handled it with no problem. I even added fish emulsion fertilizer when things ran too lean.
Never the less, after I moved and took some time off, I lost faith in the ATS's ability to do the whole job by itself. I did lots of research and designed all kinds of denitrification chambers. I still have a ton of sulfur pellets.
I installed a sump with an 8 inch deep sand bed and filled the rest of a 55 gallon tank with lots of coral rubble. This was for a 130 gallon display tank. I also dosed vodka for a short time.
Despite heavy feeding, my nitrates fell so low that the algae scrubber starved. It stopped growing algae and over about a year, my phosphates began to rise to unacceptable levels. It has mean suggested that you need a ratio of 16:1 for proper growth for export.
I bought product that absorbs the phosphates in the short run. I kept my deep sand bed but got rid of the coral rubble in an effort to cut down on the habitat for bacteria.
I am actually dosing nitrates (KNO3 Stump Remover) but I am starting slowly. I hope to get my ATS back to growing algae again soon. My nitrates and phosphates are both low but algae isn't growing yet.
Now, I am definitely not saying that a nitrate reactor is a bad idea but if you are using an algae scrubber remember this cautionary tail...be careful and use it only when your nitrates get high. Bacteria in the reactor may out-compete for the nitrates that the ATS needs.
My first move would be to make the scrubber stronger...1. More light, (perhaps adding reflectors) 2. More screen area, (perhaps going two sided if you don't have more room.) and/or 3. Better water flow (more water moving over the screen and/or more turbulence to agitate the algae for better growth.) You wouldn't put your starter nano-tank skimmer and put it on a big NPS tank would you?
Then, if you add the nitrate reactor, use it like medicine. I personally feel that an ATS works well for an NPS tank because the food can stay in the water column longer. Properly designed, it is simple and powerful. It is not the only good system that works well but I have found that it works for me. You just have to get or build a good one.
Last edited:
SantaMonica
Well-known member
... and a rougher screen.
MARINECRITTERS
New member
With the nitrate reactor I will max out at 10ml a day, while this is underrated it should help the ATS remove it's portion of nutrient, and the nitrate reactor will remove the other portion.
SantaMonica, do you think my scrubber is underrated for my system? ( 7 inches across and 10 inches deep, it is also only lit on one side with two led bulbs that are equivalent to a 50w brightness )
SantaMonica, do you think my scrubber is underrated for my system? ( 7 inches across and 10 inches deep, it is also only lit on one side with two led bulbs that are equivalent to a 50w brightness )
SantaMonica
Well-known member
A serious scrubber should always be 2-sided to keep the roots alive longer.
7 X 10 = 70 square inches needs at least a total of 70 real CFL watts (or 35 LED watts), but preferably 100 real CFL watts.
A "50w equivalent" bulb is probably only 13 real watts. Would not work well at all.
7 X 10 = 70 square inches needs at least a total of 70 real CFL watts (or 35 LED watts), but preferably 100 real CFL watts.
A "50w equivalent" bulb is probably only 13 real watts. Would not work well at all.
MARINECRITTERS
New member
Okay, I will add stronger LEDS to the scrubber, I will keep one of the 13 watt LED's but I will change out the other one with a 35w LED I have laying around.
MARINECRITTERS
New member
Just started up the phytoplankton cultures three days ago, I decided to culture tetraselmus, it came in a petri dish from florida aqua farms, I am also using micro algae grow from florida aqua farms, I am currently dosing 1ml into the 16 ounce culture bottles. The specific gravity is 1.024. I am using a simple top fin air pump and it seems to be doing the trick, within three days my culture literally tripled in darkness. Also for lighting, I am using a simple fluorescent light along with a clamp on lamp.
SantaMonica
Well-known member
Looks like more light was focused on the left part of the screen.
MARINECRITTERS
New member
Yes I know, right now I am trying to figure out a new lighting system, I am thinking about going with some led linears.
MARINECRITTERS
New member
Finally got the lights, I went with four 23W CFL bulbs, I have two in the front but I am trying to figure out how I can add the other two, as I have very limited space. With my sump I have purchased a new external pump ( reeflo blowhole 1450 ). It is a semi closed loop system, this means the pump pushes water through the pluming and back into the sump, I also added a tee fitting so small amounts of new water can be sucked into the sump, while the flow on the algae scrubber is high, the flow of new and old water exiting and entering the sump is very slow, infact I dumped a 16oz bottle of live phyto in it last night, and I came down this morning to see the sump water is still slightly green. I will post some pictures of this setup later today. One of the benifets of this system is that the algae scrubber is exposed to the same water over a long period of time, this means that the scrubber can completely strip the given amount of water of nutrients. Now this made me think, since the input of new water is so slow why not add phytoplankton, the chance of it blooming is significantly small. If I dumped a few bottles of LIVE phytoplankton in the sump, some of the phyto would feed the sponges, filter feeders, zoo plankton,etc and the amount that stays in the sump can consume nutrients from my tank, it would essentially be a free floating refugium.
The science of this is simple, phytoplankton is really a plant, not only do plants photosynthesis, but they also consume nutrients in the form of phosphorus and nitrogenous waste ( and so on ). In our aquarium we try to remove these wastes, so in my mind this type of filter that I call the phyto filter would be perfect for a nps tank.
The cells that are dead in the sump can be removed through the skimmer and once broken down, through the scrubber.
I plan on dosing about a gallon a week.
I will keep you posted on how this thing works out. Pictures tonight!
The science of this is simple, phytoplankton is really a plant, not only do plants photosynthesis, but they also consume nutrients in the form of phosphorus and nitrogenous waste ( and so on ). In our aquarium we try to remove these wastes, so in my mind this type of filter that I call the phyto filter would be perfect for a nps tank.
The cells that are dead in the sump can be removed through the skimmer and once broken down, through the scrubber.
I plan on dosing about a gallon a week.
I will keep you posted on how this thing works out. Pictures tonight!
MARINECRITTERS
New member
PICTURES
MARINECRITTERS
New member
I also picked up a tubastrea coral, it is very damaged but I think I can bring it back.
MARINECRITTERS
New member
Honestly I am not sure, right now I am trying to get it to open up, I will spot feed it out of the tank today and see if the polyps show, I did it last night with some success, the coral ate the food but did not open up to a full extent.
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