Tank Build Ideas

[BennyFrank]

Hi all,

I'm contemplating upgrading from my 36 gal sometime in the near future. It is HOB'ed to the max and I would like to run a system with a proper sump. I have been researching tank builds incessantly but find that the more I learn the more I realize I don't know. So I was hoping to bounce some ideas of you guys...

First off, tank dimensions...

The space where I want the tank I initially framed for a in-wall wet bar. The opening is ~35"L x 24"D x 7'H (sketchup attached for reference). This means the maximum length of the tank would need to be 30" to allow room to clean side panels with a magfloat. Here's what I've found so far that might work;

50 gal Oceanic 30.5"L x 18.5"W x 21"H
56 gal Marineland 30.25"L x 18.25"W x 24"H
45 gal Acrylic cube 24"L x 24"W x 18"H

any others you are aware of?

Is 24" too deep? I plan on keeping some LPS and SPS and have been thinking of Tek T5 (4)bulb fixture or something similar. Would that light penetrate enough to keep lps/tridacna on the sand bed?

Thanks in advance for all your advice.

P.S. If wife asks, everything discussed here is purely theoretical

 

[jd474]

A 6 bulb kit/fixture would be better. LPS and T. squamosa would be fine, but probably not the other Tridacna under 4 lamps (SPS would do better under 6, also).

 

[alanmorehead]

Unfortunately, T5s on that tank length don't really work that well. You'd have a lot more options (both tank and lighting) if you could stretch it to a 36" tank, but doesn't sound like that's an option. For T5s, you'd be limited to 24" lamps and the price point is not good on them (A 48" 4-lamp Tek is actually cheaper than the 24" 4-lamp Tek). I agree w/ Jason on the 6-lamp, especially for a 24" deep tank. However, you would be limited to a 4-lamp full fixture since they don't make them in 6-lamp models. A retro would be an option, but it's still going to cost quite a bit for the PAR you're going to put in. Long story short, I think a metal halide would work better. A good Lumen-style reflector should push that 30" width better than the other options. Also, you should be good on anything 24" or shorter with that.

Were you set on the light fixture being visible? How much room do you have behind there?

 

[BennyFrank]

Yeah definitely kicking myself for not making the "wet bar" a few inches wider. I do want the fixture to be visible as that entire nook is finished space and I don't want to run a hood. There is a storage room behind the space but I wanted to avoid reframing or tearing out drywall.

If I went with a MH pendant of some kind would heat be an issue?

 

[jd474]

A single 250 W would cover the entire 24" cube, and if you had a fan on it, I think you would probably be OK (also depending on ambient room temp.). As for the other tank sizes, 1 bulb won't cover, and 2 will probably be too hot, or not enough PAR to the bottom half of the tank to keep what you are wanting down there (using 150 or 175 W). I still think a 6-bulb retofit would be your best bet. Depending on how much you want to spend, I'm sure you could have some sort of "fixture" made to attach the bulbs to (acrylic, wood, stainless steel, etc.), and it would still have a nice "finished" look to it.

How big of a sump are you planning on? Any way to put a fan on it, or get a small chiller plumbed into the system?

 

[bohlke]

Yeah definitely kicking myself for not making the "wet bar" a few inches wider. I do want the fixture to be visible as that entire nook is finished space and I don't want to run a hood. There is a storage room behind the space but I wanted to avoid reframing or tearing out drywall.

If I went with a MH pendant of some kind would heat be an issue?

Could you just cut a hole to run some PVC behind the wall so you could put the sump back there?

 

[BennyFrank]

I still think a 6-bulb retofit would be your best bet. Depending on how much you want to spend, I'm sure you could have some sort of "fixture" made to attach the bulbs to (acrylic, wood, stainless steel, etc.), and it would still have a nice "finished" look to it.

How big of a sump are you planning on? Any way to put a fan on it, or get a small chiller plumbed into the system?

Thanks JD. I will look into the 6-bulb retro. I'm thinking 20L or 29 for the sump. Are there any considerations with sump height other than being able to service skimmer, pumps, etc.? I could put fans in the sump but wouldn't they be far less effective than blowing across the bulbs?

 

[BennyFrank]

Could you just cut a hole to run some PVC behind the wall so you could put the sump back there?

Yeah that's how I have my electrical running now actually. I've considered adding a sump this way with my current tank but it is not drilled. I've never used one but I've heard the HOB overflows can be flood prone. What are your thoughts?

 

[alanmorehead]

Yep. A pendant would give you a finished look out of the box, but wouldn't sufficiently cover those tanks. The reflector goes a long way and the Lumen-style ones give the best coverage. Those are pretty big though (~18" IIRC), but sounds like that would fit in that area if you could do some sort of canopy. You could split it up and do the dual lamp, but like Jason said you run into PAR issues on 24" depth without the 250w lamps.

I love my T5 setup, but the reason I didn't recommend them is because there really isn't a very cheap route, especially if this is going to be a "hold me over" tank. A 6-lamp T5 retro kit with some type of finished canopy is probably going to be over $500 (I hope your wife isn't reading this ). If you are going to upgrade later on, you could get Icecap ballasts now and use them later. Those are going to cost a bit more initially though for that versatility and would require fans for sure (The shorter lamps are overdriven even harder than the 60" ones. 24w => 40w). A 6-lamp Icecap setup would cover a 24" deep tank for SPS/clams and possibly staggering them if you did the 30" wide tank. Could be too much though for the shorter tanks. There are a few other hybrid ideas, but it's still going to be a pricey setup for 24".
Correction from my 1st post: The 48" T5 kits are a little more than than the 24", but not much. I was looking at the 48" w/ no lamps originally

I know you said you wanted to avoid drywall/framing work, but were you planning on drilling holes for plumbing and the sump being back in the storage room or having EVERYTHING on the finished side of the wall? I haven't seen your basement since you finished it, so I don't know what would have to be done. If you do put something in there it might be worth reconsidering doing a little drywall work to utilize the storage room and allow some easier retro options for the lighting.

I guess it depends on how long you think until you upgrade and what you're looking for before then. I have a 250w Icecap/Lumenarc MH setup if that helps. If you go T5, I have a 2x24" Tek2 retro kit. I'm not using the T5s at all now and I should be done w/ the MH in the near future.

 

[bohlke]

Yeah that's how I have my electrical running now actually. I've considered adding a sump this way with my current tank but it is not drilled. I've never used one but I've heard the HOB overflows can be flood prone. What are your thoughts?

I have a HOB overflow on my prop tank, its never broke siphon in the 3 years I have used it but its loud and I dont believe the flow rate as I can out pump it without issue. Do you already have a tank or are there few options for tanks that size with built in overflows?

With a custom T5 setup you could put a fan in the fixture and there are a bunch of low noise options.

I think the bigger the sump the better as long as you have the space. As long as you can support the minimum water depth for the skimmer you want you should be fine.

 

[BennyFrank]

Alan: You bring up good points with the costs. I'm finding that it will be almost as expensive to do this tank as one twice its size. And I'd rather break the bank on a tank when we are in the house we will be in for the long haul. Good news though, my brother (Jeremy) is talking about starting up a new tank so maybe I can get my upgrade fix through him. Thanks for letting me know about your MH and T5s, I will keep them in mind as I toss around ideas.

Bohlke: Yeah, I am having trouble finding reef ready tanks in this size without going completely custom. I will look into the HOB overflow and running a sump in the storage room if I decide not to go with a new tank at this time. If it floods though, I'm holding you accountable

Thanks again for all the advice everyone, this was exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Lots to think about...

 

[bohlke]

Alan: You bring up good points with the costs. I'm finding that it will be almost as expensive to do this tank as one twice its size. And I'd rather break the bank on a tank when we are in the house we will be in for the long haul. Good news though, my brother (Jeremy) is talking about starting up a new tank so maybe I can get my upgrade fix through him. Thanks for letting me know about your MH and T5s, I will keep them in mind as I toss around ideas.

Bohlke: Yeah, I am having trouble finding reef ready tanks in this size without going completely custom. I will look into the HOB overflow and running a sump in the storage room if I decide not to go with a new tank at this time. If it floods though, I'm holding you accountable

Thanks again for all the advice everyone, this was exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Lots to think about...

well if you get a HOB get a lifereef, they are bulletproof.

 

[BennyFrank]

Has anyone used one of the overflow kits from here http://www.glass-holes.com/ or have experience drilling glass in general? Seems pretty straight forward to me as long as the glass in not tempered (just wonder what the fail rate is?). What are the pros/cons of drilled vs. reef ready?

The "Complete Install Video" on glass-holes is pretty funny if you haven't seen it yet...

 

[alanmorehead]

Has anyone used one of the overflow kits from here http://www.glass-holes.com/ or have experience drilling glass in general? Seems pretty straight forward to me as long as the glass in not tempered (just wonder what the fail rate is?).

The "Complete Install Video" on glass-holes is pretty funny if you haven't seen it yet...

I've never drilled any personally. I thought about getting a standard 180g and having someone drill two overflows in the corner, but decided to just go with the Megaflow model. I just got too worried that I would buy a big new tank and then have it shattered. I think the risk is pretty low if you get someone with experience, but it's still a risk. I would be more inclined to do it on a smaller or older (cheaper) tank. Just make sure it's not tempered. I had 2-3 sumps drilled at AB Glass. It might be worth checking with one of the Omaha LFSs and get a cost before DIYing it. How many holes and what size were you thinking?

What are the pros/cons of drilled vs. reef ready?

For reef-ready, there is basically no risk. Usually, just a little more expensive. The tank just needs bulkheads or a kit for the overflow chambers and you're good to go. The design is pretty standard and most of the time don't need to worry about noise or gurgling issues. For cons, the chambers do take up a little bit of tank space and you have to somewhat work around it with aquascaping. Also, having the overflows on the bottom of the tank can limit some plumbing options. For example, if you want to cascade a few tanks or your sump is far away and you need a smaller decline to your sump. I don't think that's common, but it was my experience. A pro to the bottom overflows is that you can get the tank up closer to the wall since you don't have plumbing sticking out the back.

 

[jd474]

Has anyone used one of the overflow kits from here http://www.glass-holes.com/ or have experience drilling glass in general? Seems pretty straight forward to me as long as the glass in not tempered (just wonder what the fail rate is?). What are the pros/cons of drilled vs. reef ready?

The "Complete Install Video" on glass-holes is pretty funny if you haven't seen it yet...

I've purchased bits from them in the past, and have drilled about 2 dozen tanks. If you are doing less than 4-5 holes, you can't beat the price for the bits, but they do dull much quicker than a higher quality (and much more expensive) bit. Tempered glass can be drilled, but the fracture rate is over 99%, even for really experienced people. It needs to be done on a drill press with zero pressure, and even then it'll probably break. Thicker glass is easier to drill than thinner, as there's more room for error. I wouldn't recommend drilling as fast as they do on their video, though, slower and less pressure is the key. After you get the hole started (the bit likes to walk on the glass), the rest is easy, and boring. You can't get reef ready tanks in smaller sizes, and you do lose more tank space inside, but the are a lot cleaner looking, drilled through the bottom, and less of a headache overall.

 

[BennyFrank]

How many holes and what size were you thinking?

Not exactly sure yet. I still have a lot of research to do on plumbing as this will be my first build from scratch. I would like to go as simple as possible though. Would (1)3/4" drain and (1)1/2" return be sufficient for a ~40-60gal DT w/ a 29gal sump? Is it always advisable to have at least (2) drains as a failsafe?

If you are doing less than 4-5 holes, you can't beat the price for the bits, but they do dull much quicker than a higher quality (and much more expensive) bit.

jd: About how many holes can be drilled using their bits before they dull? If I went this route I would practice first on a cheapo tank but wouldn't want to dull the bits too much in the process. I'm thinking it might be worth it to get two bits, one for practice and one for the DT since they are only ~$12.

 

[jd474]

jd: About how many holes can be drilled using their bits before they dull? If I went this route I would practice first on a cheapo tank but wouldn't want to dull the bits too much in the process. I'm thinking it might be worth it to get two bits, one for practice and one for the DT since they are only ~$12.

If it was over 1/2" glass, then you might want to get 2 if you're doing over 3 - 4 holes, otherwise 1 should be fine. The 4th hole I did in my 180 took nearly an hour (1st took about 20 min.).

 

[alanmorehead]

Not exactly sure yet. I still have a lot of research to do on plumbing as this will be my first build from scratch. I would like to go as simple as possible though. Would (1)3/4" drain and (1)1/2" return be sufficient for a ~40-60gal DT w/ a 29gal sump? Is it always advisable to have at least (2) drains as a failsafe?

This varies, but the general rule is around 5x turnover through the sump. The second overflow will help as a failsafe, but each overflow will need to handle the full flow independently if you're figuring for that. A 3/4" drain will handle ~330gph, which should be adequate for about 6x turnover on a single drain. FWIW, I ran my 54g with a single 1" overflow drain. I put some gutter guard on it and never had any issues. I had two over the top u-tubes on a SCWD for the returns. If you're looking for the simplest route, a single drain is probably it.

 

[BennyFrank]

I'm trying to calculate possible energy consumption of various lighting setups. Let's say I'm overdriving 4 x 24W T5s at 40W each with an Icecap 660. The icecap 660 is rated at a maximum of 440W. How much energy would it actually be using while driving the T5's and is it consistent? (ie. is there a surge during firing and then levels off?) Also, would I add the energy consumption of the bulbs to the consumption of the ballasts or is that included in the max 440W? Thanks.

 

[alanmorehead]

I'm trying to calculate possible energy consumption of various lighting setups. Let's say I'm overdriving 4 x 24W T5s at 40W each with an Icecap 660. The icecap 660 is rated at a maximum of 440W. How much energy would it actually be using while driving the T5's and is it consistent? (ie. is there a surge during firing and then levels off?) Also, would I add the energy consumption of the bulbs to the consumption of the ballasts or is that included in the max 440W? Thanks.

The 440W max doesn't mean anything for your situation (That would be four 110W T12 VHO lamps). The power consumption would be consistent when the lamps are running, which would be ~160W for those.