Tank raised is bad for the environment

I know this may be a contentious idea, but if you think about the energy resources (likely coal, nuclear or gas) that go into raising a fish in a tank is it quite large. While in the Ocean the energy requirements are met via solar power.

The generally belief among biologist is that he Ocean has a certain "หœcaring capacity' that will determine how much life it can support. So provided we fish in a sustainable method - don't over fish or over collect corals - the Ocean will replace any life we take from it using nothing but the energy from the sun.

Let's hear your take. Do you agree, do you think there are flaws in my logic? If so what are they?

Thanks,
E
 
I'd disagree. Carrying capacity is more related to how much the oceans can sustain. Also, you're assuming a perfect scenario. Which obviously this is not. Pollution, habitat destruction, over fishing. These are all realities facing the fish.
 
Go to BRS 2016 MACNA coverage and listen to...I believe one of Walt Smiths talks. He speaks of this very issue, very interesting talk.
 
Personally, I don't like to see rare, hard-to-find, or mature animals being captured from their home to be put in a glass box. No matter how large and beautiful the glass box is, it is nothing compare to their majestic home. It is like capturing a wild bird and put it in a cage, or large mammal and put it in a zoo.
 
I think your analysis is far to simple even if you are only considering energy cost and ignoring all sorts of other factors including those posted above. What about all the energy expended by those who collect the wild fish? What about all the energy it takes to transport fish from collectors to us? I'm not sure whether "tank raised" comes out ahead on energy or not -- in fact, it would be pretty hard to calculate.
 
Being in the hobby for more than 40 years, I have another point to raise about farmed fish.

IMO, tank raised fish are more suseptable to diesese and parasiste. Just as in the argument about which uses more energy, facts about susseptability to diesease and parasites are not isolated. IMO, survival of the fittest becomes a more important process in the health of a specific species than being "tank raised".
 
I think your analysis is far to simple even if you are only considering energy cost and ignoring all sorts of other factors including those posted above. What about all the energy expended by those who collect the wild fish? What about all the energy it takes to transport fish from collectors to us? I'm not sure whether "tank raised" comes out ahead on energy or not -- in fact, it would be pretty hard to calculate.

You're correct, it takes a lot of energy to get a fish from SE Asia/Pacific to the US or wherever the fish is ending up. But it pales in comparison to the energy used to raise a fish from egg to sellable size. Figure at least 6 months (most likely almost a year) from egg to sellable. You not only have to supply water, heat, and light for those fry, but you have to supply food. You also have to supply water, heat, light for the live food to get those fry to grow, and for the phytoplankton to raise that live food. Aquaculture needs their own supplies, which most likely are not local and need to be shipped. Then, when you sell those fish, they are also going to be shipped, albeit a shorter distance, but still shipped nonetheless.

Don't get my wrong, I'm all for aquaculture, and it's really great if we can raise those species in bulk for food, but also rare species that we should leave in the ocean or species that can be trained to take frozen or dry food that otherwise would not. However, we should all be aware that many aquaculture methods are in no way good for the environment and that sustainable fishing is more friendly.

Here's a quickie for info from the Monterey Bay Aquarium's Seafood Watch (very reputable):
http://www.seafoodwatch.org/ocean-issues/fishing-and-farming-methods

While it's more for food fish, many issues also apply to the aquaculture of ornamental fish, which, while it represents a super small fraction of the aquaculture business, it directly uses knowledge from the food industry. I believe the most successful breeding of large angelfish is the P. maculosis angel, which while we keep in aquariums, is being cultured for food.

On the flip side, what about all the workers and divers and conservation effors that the *GOOD* collectors employ in their respective environments? If perhaps you pulled all those collectors out, then what would the local people then do? Would they fall back on destroying the reef to build homes and make a cheap buck? Would they have learned how to conserve their environment or would they keep trying to modernize and end up polluting? The list can go on and on for both sides of the argument, but it's not so black and white and fuel and electricity. Many of the good collectors put a lot back into the local economy and local population, and educate on conservation. This is very important if we want to conserve our reefs. The amount of collection for the marine ornamental industry is super small when compared to commercial fishing for food. That's the one we need to worry about.

As far as tank raised fish being more susceptible to disease, I've not heard this and I don't believe it to be true. Most people I think would say tank raised are hardier. I don't see all the designer clownfish being sick all the time.
 
I think your analysis is far to simple even if you are only considering energy cost and ignoring all sorts of other factors including those posted above. What about all the energy expended by those who collect the wild fish? What about all the energy it takes to transport fish from collectors to us? I'm not sure whether "tank raised" comes out ahead on energy or not -- in fact, it would be pretty hard to calculate.

This is a good. point, I didn't think of the cost to transport.
 
I'd disagree. Carrying capacity is more related to how much the oceans can sustain. Also, you're assuming a perfect scenario. Which obviously this is not. Pollution, habitat destruction, over fishing. These are all realities facing the fish.

Hi, neat points. I would like to answer though.

Pollution - Different issue. I agree needs to be adressed. Though can be done independently of this issue

Habitat Destruction - same as above

Over fishing - address in my email, responsible collection is a must.

Thanks, for your reply.
 
Personally, I don't like to see rare, hard-to-find, or mature animals being captured from their home to be put in a glass box. No matter how large and beautiful the glass box is, it is nothing compare to their majestic home. It is like capturing a wild bird and put it in a cage, or large mammal and put it in a zoo.

I agree, rare stuff needs to stay in the wild.
 
I think your analysis is far to simple even if you are only considering energy cost and ignoring all sorts of other factors including those posted above. What about all the energy expended by those who collect the wild fish? What about all the energy it takes to transport fish from collectors to us? I'm not sure whether "tank raised" comes out ahead on energy or not -- in fact, it would be pretty hard to calculate.

Agree, the post is a super simple version of the issue. 1) Because I am not great writer, and 2) because most people don't want to read big long, essay like posts.

Just trying to get a discussion going the topic
 
"In fact, Cryptocaryon irritans is rare in the wild, and even more unlikely to be lethal (Bunkley-Williams & Williams, 1994). Ich is truly a disease that exploits the conditions of captivity to reproduce and easily find suitable hosts."

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/
While Stephen Pro doesn't say wild caught fish are healthier than farm raised fish. he does say that they are less likely to bring in and to succome to diesease and parasite in our aquariums,


I say aquacultured ornamental fish are more suseptable to diesease and parasistes because they heve never been exposed to pathogens. They have a weakened immune system.
I compare the whole process to polio and small pox vaccines in the last century. A small dose of pathogen was introduced to school children to build up immune systeme.
 
Hi, neat points. I would like to answer though.

Pollution - Different issue. I agree needs to be adressed. Though can be done independently of this issue

Habitat Destruction - same as above

Over fishing - address in my email, responsible collection is a must.

Thanks, for your reply.

How is pollution or habitat destruction a separate issue? Both exert pressure on the available stock of fish, as does over fishing. Remove some of that pressure by captive breeding and that alleviates stressors on the fish population. And addressing the issue of responsible collection by saying "if we fish in a sustainable method" really doesn't address the issue.

Sure I'd love to be able to ignore some of the issues to discuss this, but that's not really useful for the overall conversation is it? In reality, the oceans are over fished, polluted, and habitat is being destroyed in one way or another. So removing some of the pressure on some populations by captive breeding is a positive. There are also means of providing said energy resources with little cost to the environment, nuclear as you mentioned, or renewable sources. Some of the warmer climate sources I think just use big tanks set outside where the temps are warm enough for the tank that they need little energy, Bali was one maybe? While the energy inputs to raise them in captivity may be greater, I'm not sure how that makes it a worse option.

And I mean really, if you are actually worried about energy inputs to raise fish, what are you doing even having a tank? Its a giant electricity suck.
 
The same can be said for items manufactured for renewable energy, i.e. solar panels. How much other natural resources are used to manufacture the solar panels?
 
The energy expenditure of captive raising is far from the only issue. How do you know how many you can harvest to be sustainable without estimates of the population of every species you collect and it's natural history? Maybe it cold be done in a perfect world but in reality conservation studies are not done for every species.

Additionally many wild caught animals die as a result of stresses from the time of capture to your LFS that are not issues for tank raised fish.
 
Tank raised fish and corals are much more ecological without a doubt.For corals to grow there is a lot of electric energy consumption with the lights but for fish breeding thats extremely low.Most coral farms also use solar energy ,not because is enviromental friendly but because its more economical.Its a bad idea to start growing corals for aquarium directly in the ocean because somme non native species or diseases could be introduced into the ecosystems around the farm.Ive buyed a lot of wild caught fish and i can tell you they come with a lot of parasites and they adapt hard to the aquarium.
 
While I'd agree that sustainable fishing practices are a good thing, human fishing history has had a very checkered history. As the worlds coral reefs continue to decline, I think it's only a matter of time before many of the species we keep will be prohibited from collection. At that point tank raised, or maybe even tank bred, will be the only way to continue the hobby.
 
I know this thread is old, however I'd like to post these links to BRS MACNA coverage, so that people can take a look. I really recommend those that thing ornamental marine aquarium fishing is bad for the fish population listen.

I know the videos are long, however I think it's great info, and very pertinent to the conversation here. Ornamental collection is NOT a large impact on reefs, it is food collection that impacts and habitat destruction (due to global warming, pollution, construction, runoff...not collection for marine aquaria trade).

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/view/coral-reef-conservation-expedition-to-somaliland-by-dr-luiz-rocha-macna-2016/
(Check out at 30 min in regarding yellow tangs)...but really the whole talk is good.

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/view/what-does-it-take-who-benefits-what-have-we-learned-by-walt-smith-macna-2016/
Here Walt talks about how he's been fishing the exact same spots for ornamentals for 30years, and sees no decline in population. This makes sense if you listen to the talk about, and it explains how most of the marine aquarium trade is for prey species, and prey species are essentially meant to be food for larger predators, and as such, their populations are able to handle the ornamental trade fishing.

Anyways, very interesting.
 
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