Tbs & Dsb Oolic Sand?????

[thelastlaugh9]

Reefnet to thank you needed.. I agree quite a bit with what you've had to say but I do see both points. I've had excellent luck with TBS so far but I'm always open to other options and opinions. You learn quite a bit by being the by-stander to a debate. I've only had nanos and I'm sure you know the difficulty in those and the time you have to put aside. I'm currently in the process of doing a Red Sea 34g which is unfortunately for lack of disposable cash, the largest I could afford and it's turn-key

 

[Melusina]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand all the talk about "binders". According to the website, the rock is Bahamian coral rock that was brought in by barge and placed at the lease site. The rock is a by-product of the Bahamians widening canals in Freeport and is not crushed coral held together with a binder.

So if I'm understanding correctly, it's natural coral rock that is placed on the ocean floor for years in a man-made reef which is then harvested.

As someone who spends as much time underwater as time and money allows, I can tell you that the sand and rock sure look and act just like what's on the bottom of the ocean. I find I'm getting a huge amount of enjoyment watching my indoor reef - but I can stay dry and wear my pajamas instead of a mask and fins.

 

[RicksReefs]

oolitic aragonite is the way to go for a DSB. smaller particle size means more surface area. smaller particle size also means the critters that run a DSB can move thru it easier and safer. oolitic aragonite also has the added benefit in that less sand is needed to creat the aerobic/anoxic/anaerobic zones. you can have a fully functioning DSB with as little as 3"
and there are no 'sulfuric acid' pockets in a properly running DSB with critters.
TBS rock is not made, it's mined coral rock. just about the entire state of florida was a coral reef about 6 million years ago.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php

 

[FlashPro]

I have to agree with RicksReefs. To say that 1/16th inch pieces have more surface are than smaller size is just nutty and defies mathematics. Arguing otherwise due to "porosity" is bogus as well. Next, to say that bacteria and animals can't get down deep because it's too fine and compacted is also off. Bacteria are extremely small and have no problem squeezing into smaller substrate. Snails and sand stirrers aren't supposed to go down more than an inch or two anyway. The bottom layers are supposed to be undisturbed and packed tightly.

The Dr. Shimek link you referenced should put this all to rest.

 

[g8gxp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13394296#post13394296 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 68551
Which brings me to another point....How do the inverts in Part 1 stay alive through the cycle of the new set up?????

As long as you keep the ammonia below 1.0 they should be fine. I think the inverts have a slightly higher tolerance.

I don't pretend to know very much, but... if you do get anything from TBS, follow Richard's instructions. THEY WORK.

 

[g8gxp]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13394273#post13394273 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 68551
I really don't want the look of a bb tank...I want sand for the sifters to sift (the ocean isn't bb)....I am trying to make logical sense of all of this before I plunk down money on something I will be sorry for later....The sand in tsb looks like very big grains to me reminding me of the problems I had with my first tank....My first tank crashed due to crushed coral that leached nitrate like a factory....Which is why I am prone to go in the opposite direction with oolic sand....If you pile up oolic sand (& all of them are smooth circles) it seems to me that the surface area would be greater because the water could get between the sand thus allowing a flow-through bed....what about the de-nitrification of a dsb??? Is that no longer valid???? I am getting so confused...Just when I thought I had it figured out I now have even MORE questions!!!!

DSB is a minimum 4" bed so if you don't have that then you need to go no more than 1.5-2" bed I think. As long as your CUC is adequate you shouldn't have any problems with nitrates leaching. For a shallow bed if you have enough sand sifting organisms I honestly don't think it matters what grain size you have (within reason). Emphasis on having enough critters of course!

 

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13394502#post13394502 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Melusina
I'm sorry, maybe I'm missing something, but I don't understand all the talk about "binders". According to the website, the rock is Bahamian coral rock that was brought in by barge and placed at the lease site. The rock is a by-product of the Bahamians widening canals in Freeport and is not crushed coral held together with a binder.

So if I'm understanding correctly, it's natural coral rock that is placed on the ocean floor for years in a man-made reef which is then harvested.

As someone who spends as much time underwater as time and money allows, I can tell you that the sand and rock sure look and act just like what's on the bottom of the ocean. I find I'm getting a huge amount of enjoyment watching my indoor reef - but I can stay dry and wear my pajamas instead of a mask and fins.

I have not tryied to follow every twist of the name calling and anger of some folks who have been going off in this thread but it seems that some folks have the wrong idea and or some bad information about what TBS does.

So far I have treid to reply to the OP's question and not to the rest.

for the questions about the TBS rock:

some folks get stuff from the pacific and love it. they (IN MY OPINION) then get the wrong idea about what "LIVE ROCK" is.

a lot of the pacific "rock" is chunks of "dead reef" coral bones that are not "rock" at all. just big chunks of old dead coral with some level of after growth.

TBS is getting mined coral rock that is not as light as pacific coral.

does this mean it's anything like concreete? heck no.
does this mean it's not "real" heck no.

IMHO I would rather see folks focus on saving the pacific reefs and not encourage the harvest of pacific dead coral as I can see several ways that can lead to more reef loss.

I would love to see someone do what tbs does out in the pacific.

One thing that some folks overlook is that by TBS puting rock down and letting the reef build on it is building new reef, it I think has a net positive effect on the area he works with.

If someone has questions / concerns about how TBS rock is farmed please start a thread on that topic.

Please do not keep derailing the OP's questions with other stuff.

 

[HowardW]

Good post figuerres, Unfortunately every so often someone comes to this forum and posts a bunch of both derogatory and incorrect nonsense about TBS rock and I believe they should be called out on it so the newer people are not discouraged from buying a great product.

 

[RicksReefs]

bad info should be corrected, wherever it occurs.

TBS has a great product with many pluses and a few minuses. Richard doesn't attempt to hide anything with the way he presents his pruduct.


(a DSB should have no sand 'sifters' at all.)

 

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13395645#post13395645 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HowardW
Good post figuerres, Unfortunately every so often someone comes to this forum and posts a bunch of both derogatory and incorrect nonsense about TBS rock and I believe they should be called out on it so the newer people are not discouraged from buying a great product.

Thanks,

I just wanted to make it clear that:

a) the OP's questions came first
and
b) I did not want to be a part of a "****ing contest" exuse the word there
and
c) try to start to clear up the facts
and
d) give a constructive idea ( start a new thread about the rock if you want to go over it's pros and cons)

I think I did that.

 

[68551]

OK.....SOOOOOO.....49 posts later inquiring minds still NEED to know.....

DSB compatable with TBS???? ......yes or no & why.....


oolic sand & TBS????....yes or no, why & how deep....


In the video why is the rock not under water in the pails on the boat????

 

[figuerres]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13397986#post13397986 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 68551
OK.....SOOOOOO.....49 posts later inquiring minds still NEED to know.....

DSB compatable with TBS???? ......yes or no & why.....


oolic sand & TBS????....yes or no, why & how deep....


In the video why is the rock not under water in the pails on the boat????

if you want to have a deep sand bed you can do it with tbs sand.

if you want to create a "fine grain bed" then you may want to strain the sand with a colander or strainer as tbs sand is a sample of what's on the bottom and will have some shells and rock bits etc...

just understand that when you try to seperate the size you may also kill some of the small stars and worms that are in the sand.
also that richards packages are for a not-so-deep sand bed.
talk to richard about what you want.

 

[Drunes]

Give you my experiance for what it is worth,

I use Richards sand in my main tank, I have use fine sugar sand before in my main tank but it has always required heavy maintiance. It is not going to stay that pure white beach look for long. Richards sand has always worked well for me and requires no maintiance.

I do use fine sand in one of my two sumps but it is not exposed to much light and stays fairly clean. I do use sand sifters in it as well. It is there more as a buffering source than anything else. It does help with filteration but I find it to me more of a nitrate factory.

As for the rock reading through this thread was painful... I have ordered significant pounds of this rock over the years.

My new tank is going to get 520 lbs of this rock. Over the years IMHO I have not found any better.

 

[68551]

20 YEARS EXPERIENCE IS NOTHING TO SNEEZE AT!!!! Is Richards sand argonite????

 

[Drunes]

Richards is a mix of sand, coral sand and shell framents, it is what you find in the seabed around his lease site it buffers very well.

Here is all be it a poor picture of the TBS sand from my last tank.

This is a picture of the rock right out of the box after the drive home from the airport. This was in Feb 2004 when I was living in Milwaukee. Everything you see on that rock survived very little to no die off.

 

[68551]

QUOTE "Here is all be it a poor picture of the TBS sand from my last tank."

What kind of extra work did the sugar sand require & did you have sand sifters in it????
Does your current tank have this sand in it too????
Ps....The rock looks awesome!!!! I am definately SOLD on the rock I'm just not so sure about the sand....

 

[divemonster]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13406947#post13406947 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by 68551
QUOTE "Here is all be it a poor picture of the TBS sand from my last tank."

What kind of extra work did the sugar sand require & did you have sand sifters in it????
Does your current tank have this sand in it too????
Ps....The rock looks awesome!!!! I am definately SOLD on the rock I'm just not so sure about the sand....

Since you are wanting to mix TBS live rock with this sand you just can't live without, you should read this post:
<a href=http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1427234&perpage=10&pagenumber=1 target=_blank>Black sand</a>

 

[68551]

I have printed all 6 pages of it & am settling down to a long read....THANKS!!!!

 

[Drunes]

Current tank is being Built Out. There are pictures of the current phase.

I water tested starting last weekend the tank will be tore down cleaned and RO/DI fill starting on Saturday, salt mix added on 1 October. I have a slight variation on Richards process in that I cycle the tank before I order "The Package."

I do not add anything but the sump sand bed once it has cycled. I place the order.

I follow Richard instructions from that point on to the letter.

Package 1 cycles faster this way and I have less Package 1 die off.

To answer your other question about fine sand. You will over time see small bubbles trapped in the sand even with sand sifters. The sand will need occassional stirring to release this trapped gas.

With heavy lighting the sand will clump as well. There are some bacteria types that actually knit the sand together.

Never had any of these issues with Richards sand.

 

[68551]

I really like Drunes idea about the live sand in the sump....I plan on having a fuge in the sump, maybe that would be the best place....I have mostly heard from people who just gpt the package....does anyone still have all that life in rock & sand after 2 years or so????