temperate sharks in tropical tanks

David M

New member
I'm looking for someone who can explain the technical side of this to me, or at least tell me if I'm on the right track. Smoothhound sharks are common off the coast of California, especially in the summer. Greys, browns and leopards can be found in good numbers. Scott Michael lists the temperature range for these animals to be low 50's to 70f yet I continually see ( legally collected) sharks kept in "tropical" systems running upwards of 77/ 78f. My understanding is that cool water holds more oxygen than warmer water and the gill structure of temperate water fish just can't get enough 02 out of warmer water. What I have been told is that the sharks will do fine in the 77/78 range if care is taken to ensure a high oxygen content thru massive skimming, wet/dry filtration, added air and even ozone. Does this sound reasonable? Or is the animal due to suffer long term consequences. They certainly seem to do well in the displays I have seen and some claim to have had them for years. Don't worry, I'm not planning a smoothhound tank, I have my bamboo sharks to keep me happy. It's just that I am involved in the local trade (clownfish breeder) and I continually get into debates about this with my customers, I'd like to know what I'm talking about :rolleyes:
 
Globally speaking, I do not think sharks have ever had a problem adapting to the ever changing ocean climate.

For a shark I would not sweat the 10-20 degree difference, besides the temperate and tropical high/low overlap each other, i would just find a happy medium.

Long term I have no idea, I do not think it has been studied really.

PS. From reading I hear ozone is a big no-no in a shark tank.
 
PS. From reading I hear ozone is a big no-no in a shark tank.

That IS interesting, it's a collector I know who reccommends it. Obviously there are some conflicting views out there :rolleyes:

Seems to be no mention of ozone one way or the other in the Michael book.
 
You might be interested in reading this, a quick newsbite on the incident at the Pittsburgh facility where sharks succumbed to ozone poisoning.

I am not sure if this extends to all shark species in captivity.

I asked a lot of questions of the aquarists with Monterey Bay, they seemed quite convinced that leopard sharks (which are quite beautiful) absolutely needed temperate temperature to stay alive. Whether that has a physiological basis I have no idea.

I wonder if temperature affects their metabolism and screws up other physiological processes other than their absorption of oxygen across the gill membrane.

>Sarah
 
I think you are on the right track David. Cooler water holds more dissolved gas than warmer and warmer depresses metabolism and motion.

I haven't heard anything about not using ozone with sharks. It seems the Pittsburgh zoo incident that Samala posted had an equipment malfunction and/or human error. Ozone is safe for most fish as long as the deadly bioproducts are removed, usually with carbon. Sharks may be more sensitive to higher levels of ORP than other fish, but I don't know for sure.

Personally I don't believe that our temperate leopard and horn sharks should be allowed to be sold to hobbiests, given that most of them are going to put them into the tropical temperature range tanks.

Christine
 
Well, for a time these cold water sharks will survive in tropical setting. However, there are long term effects. If you asked 10 people who have kept either of these sharks for more than a year, I GUARANTEE that after a year to two years the shark will up and die for no apparent reason. Sharks are very oxygen sensitive and warmer water doesnt hold as much as you well know. The people at Monteray Bay have it right, as they should. Much better to keep these animals at cooler temps.
 
David,

Funny thing, I'm giving a talk at a local aquarium club in about 4 hours about temperate marine aquariums. I plan to come down very hard on people who push upper temperature limits. This problem extends beyond temperate sharks - Catalina gobies are the saddest thing - I've seen 600+ at a single wholesalers and we all know that 99.5% of them are going to be housed at 75+ degrees. They are going to "live fast and die young".
When I was a kid, I kept a smoothhound at 75 degrees. It was like it was on meth! I literally could not feed it without it tailwalking across the tank or jumping out! Even at lower temperatures, they are pretty spastic.
I'm sorry if I insult Letmegrow but that was some really poor info - almost like he/she was posting everything wrong just for grins. The other posts are more accurate.

Jay Hemdal
 
Correct me if I am wrong but dont all animals' metabolisms fasten when they are forced to live in a warmer environment than they are phisically addopted to? And faster matabolism means shorter life span?
 
OK Ill put in my two cents here. Think of it this way, most of the animals we choose to keep in our aquariums have evolved over the last couple million years to occupy very specialized niches in the worlds oceans. Within these niches, certain parameters are generally well maintained (dare I say better than most advanced aquarists are able to provide).

Temperature is directly linked to waters ability to retain dissolved oxygen. The warmer the water, the less dissolved oxygen can be held. We are talking in parts per million (ppm), and not 400 or 500ppm, but any where from 8 to 30ppm. Temperature may vary in a localized areas of the ocean by as much as 1.0 degree celcius daily in a common saltwater habitat, and maybe 4 or 5 degrees celcius over a year. Fish physiology allows for certain things to fluctuate in the environment such as pressure, trace elements, etc. The evolution of physostomous or physoclist gas bladders and counter-current gas exchange across gill surfaces in advanced teleost fish aid a fishes ability to maximize the amount of oxygen that can be transfered into the blood stream. Some fish can actually store oxygen in the bladder and release it into the blood stream when needed. These traits allow most fish we aquarists are interested in keeping to cope with warmer water (ie less dissolved oxygen).

Sharks on the other hand are less evolved than teleost fish, and that is fine for environments they commonly occupy in the wild. Sharks use a system of oil bouyancy in enlarged livers to control their depth in a water column instead of a gas bladder. They can't rely on additional oxygen stores from a gas bladder. Their gills aren't as efficient as a modern teleosts either, so they require an environment with more dissolved oxygen (commonly one of colder waters instead of more turbid waters) than other common marine aquarium fish. There are so many reasons why a typical aquarist should not keep sharks, but these are the main physiological reasons linking to this topic. Im sure I have forgotten many important aspects to shark physiology that would make them bad candidates for an aquarium.

Yes, large aquariums ( larger than 10,000 gallons) can meet most needs of reasonably sized sharks (>2m), their equipment, training and staff is more advanced than most aquarists.

As for the ozone generator being harmful, I am unsure of a solid answer. The ampullary of lorenzi on sharks are extremly sensitive to electrical charge in their natural environment. It's been proven that they cannot turn of the organs in the case of a system overload, hence why divers use low electrical pulses to lure in sharks and stronger ones to push them away. If I understand ozone generation correctly, it consists of turning an O2 molecule into two free radicals which then attach to floating pollutants and oxides them, then returns back to their origanl form of O2. This involves alot of negativley charges ions floating in the water or air ( 2000 neg charges ions / centimeter = that fresh smell after an electicity storm). These types of environments are found near waterfalls, electricity strikes, and crashing waves. Not common places for sharks. Will this type of environment lead to the premature death of a captured shark, i dont know..... is it healthy for the animal.... I doubt it.

Please feel free to respond to my post, I love to hear others opinions. PM me if you wish to talk further on the subject!

Cheers,

Scott
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8434927#post8434927 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ozadars
Correct me if I am wrong but dont all animals' metabolisms fasten when they are forced to live in a warmer environment than they are phisically addopted to? And faster matabolism means shorter life span?


Warmer environment means a faster metabolism which inturn means more required oxygen. The kicker is that there is in fact less available oxygen. A hotter environment infact causes the animal to die of aspyxiation.

As for growth, yes a warmer environment will cause a fish to grow faster, but as Im sure you know there are many other important factors that directly effect fish growth ( ie quality of food, quality of water, competition for resources, etc.). Will fish die prematurely due to increased growth rate, I dont know. Maybe it will increase tumors and such. Im sure there will be scientific research on fishery's and such and adverse effects due to global warming (if you believe in it).

Cheers,

Scott
 
Well, its hard to work on sharks as they have a long life span and you cant be %100 sure on the subject because as you said there are many factors that effect life span. However, cephalopods have very short life spans and i read people who keep cool water octopuses such as O. vulgaris in tropical temperatures observe shorter life span than the ones who keep them in cooler water. I dont know if it would have same effect on sharks.
 
It is not only dissolved oxygen that causes issues with animals - there are sometimes chemical reactions at the cellular level that simply do not operate properly outside the correct temperature range.
In regards to that old saw about the ocean's having a stable temperature and therefore fish not adapted to change - ya gotta tell that to the Stegastes damselfish I saw tending its nest right on the thermocline in the Galapagos. Every wave passing overhead raised and lowered the level of that thermocline a few feet. The damsel and its nest was constantly being exposed to 10 degree F. temperature swings - they were having no problem, but I got too cold and had to leave after observing them for a few minutes - oh wait, I'm the endotherm and they are the ectotherm, isn't supposed to work the other way?
In regards to sharks being "less evolved" than bony fishes - I'm not certain that is true, they have been around a whole lot longer, but that does not make them "less evolved" - actually the contrary is probably true. Maybe "less derived" is a better term to use? And then there are some people who can sucessfully argue that birds are simply derived reptiles and that sharks are not fish....


Jay Hemdal
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8445037#post8445037 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Scythanith
Temperature may vary in a localized areas of the ocean by as much as 1.0 degree celcius daily in a common saltwater habitat, and maybe 4 or 5 degrees celcius over a year.

I SCUBA dive with the exact sharks David has in question. I too am from San Diego and I've seen leopards, smooth hounds, horn sharks, soups fins and i don't knwo what else. The temperature swings for these animals is FAR FAR great than a few degrees. Easily a 20 F difference from above and below the thermocline. I've had dozens of dives with surface temps or 70 degrees just to drop down and feel 50 degree water freeze my face. And most of the fish move within the temperature zones freely and often. I know these animals get exposed to a much greater temperature difference than a few degrees even within minutes. Heck even surfing here I feel warm streams and cold streams that vary by several degrees. But I do agree with everyone that southern california beaches do not hit 78 degrees and these animals should not be kept tropical aquariums (or by hobbiests for that matter).
FB
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8459023#post8459023 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JHemdal
In regards to sharks being "less evolved" than bony fishes - I'm not certain that is true, they have been around a whole lot longer, but that does not make them "less evolved" - actually the contrary is probably true. Maybe "less derived" is a better term to use? And then there are some people who can sucessfully argue that birds are simply derived reptiles and that sharks are not fish....


Jay Hemdal

Evolution and derived can intertwined.

I know I am not the know all end all of vertebrate evolution and/or fish morphology but I have learned somethings. Evolution is one of them. Birds are an traceable evolution of certain reptile lineages. By evolution I mean they had succesfully adapted to fill a particular environmental niche, out competing other animals due to slight variations in their gene pool, natural selection, and sometimes genetic drift. To be derived is to know where and what one came from, what they have "evolved" from to become what they now are. Now before anyone gets on my case, you can not prove soft morpoholgy adaptations in prehistoric life reliably, nor can you accurately predict their exact behaviours. But you can make educated supportable guesses. I didn't join this disscusion to debate the meaning of evolution. I wanted to make my case why these sharks aren't appropriate for a tropical marine tank.

Sharks and other fish such as types of tuna can redirect blood from their core to their outer muscular walls. The blood from the core is a couple degrees warmer than the surrounding environment. The reason for this is that if you can create a body temperature greater than your surrounding environment, you can have greater bursts of energy compared to if you are the same temp as the environment. This gives the predatory fish the ability to use bursts of speed to capture prey.

As for other animals living in a greater range of temperatures than a couple degrees of variation.... there are always going to be exceptions to everything. What we were really talking about originally was a sharks ability to live succesfully in a marine tank. The key here is successfully. Just cause it can live doesn't mean it's the proper environment or should be done. What is the mean average temperature of the waters? Of course their are fluctuations in an environment. but do you think an animal will be happy living at a constant 78 celcius (on average) when it's used to living at a temp of 60 celcius. I just pulled these numbers out of thin air so dont quote me. Whale sharks (largest known fish) travel through tropical and temerate waters no problem. I am aware that many animals can survive in great temperature fluctuations. A breaching Great White comes from 50 feet plus deep straight up and burst out of the surface to catch its prey. That's gotta be a 20 degree change in temp in a matter of seconds.

Cheers,

Scott
 
Scott,

I wasn't using the term "derived" to mean something that evolved from something else, but rather the more arcane usage where "derived" means "more changed". So, when I said that sharks are less derived, it simply means that they are less changed from their ancestral form - in terms of their phenotype, not genotype of course. Another example would be of the perciforme fishes, swordfish are more phenotypically derived than is a cichlid. You can't say that swordfish are more evolutionarily "advanced" than cichlids, are, but they are more derived.
As for the breaching white shark example, obviously the shark's core body temperature would not change in the time it is out of the water due to the low specific heat of air. My damselfish example was *not* an exception to the rule, but was offered up as an example of why "conventional wisdom" (e.g. marine fish are stenothermic) does not always hold up. Actually, in this case, the exceptions far outweigh the rules when it comes to this; thermoclines are something almost every species of fish is adapted to. Then there are temporal variations, such as the tropical green moray that is also found at 800 feet in 55 degree water. Add to that seasonal variations, such as the bass that must be able to adapt to a range of temperatures of 34 to 85 degrees F. and you can see that variability in aquatic environment temperatures is the rule, not the exception.
That said, there are STILL physiological limits for every species, and for temperate water sharks that started this discussion, the range is on the order of 50 to 70 degrees F.

Jay Hemdal
 
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