Tested detritus-filled water

[reefwars]

ok so i read your article , sounds great and youv'e obviously have a passion for it but it lacks alot of information.


http://nautilusaquarium.com/poe-and-the-case-for-biodiversity-in-the-reef-aquarium/

im assuming im reading the right article?

im not trying to be rude so i hope this doesnt come off as such but seems to me its no different then any other retailers site for CUC's and there information they provide , theres very little real data if any about what the animals do exactly and what role they play in an aquarium ,the description is rather vague..... you go on to say that equipment is but a band aid fix and the article is an article you wrote for the business you work for and conveniently enough you sell these animals no?


most of the animals listed are not in short demand in mot reefs .....pods, worms , shrimps etc. i have an abundance of these in a reef that was all dry rock , no sand and brand new equipment so if i have it surely mature reefs where the time has passed to reproduce must have more than me.

is it enough though?

if it is how do we know exactly if it is or isnt?

 

[Bilk]

Ah ok So would a better testing method be to leave the collected detritus in the water for a longer period before measuring? Is maintaining the same relative temperature of the tank important to this? If it's a time vs release mechanism, I assume readings at different intervals would prove necessary to somewhat determine the rate of release?

I'm really no chemist/biologist if you couldn't tell :fun4: So I had to look up abiotic degradation I only found references to it relating to chemicals, plastics and the like. Wiki had an article that has since been removed. Here's the initial definition:

Abiotic decomposition
Abiotic decomposition or abiotic degradation is degradation of a substance by chemical or physical processes, for example hydrolysis, reduction and oxidation.

So what precipitates the breakdown or release of the bound PO4/NO3? I'd assume bacteria act upon detrital matter, but then the PO4/No3 are being consumed. I can also see how acidification would cause it to be released, but our systems are alkaline. Does acidification happen in a localized region where detritus accumulates?

I guess what I'm trying to convey is, we believe that detrital matter has bound N&P, but what is the mechanism that releases it?

 

[bertoni]

The release will happen due to microbial action and bulk flow, I'd guess, but small animals might do some of the work, too. I have no idea of the time vs percentage released chart might look.

 

[Captainsreef]

Actually I sold the animals for a little while but we ran out of stock within 2 weeks and we do not sell live animals anymore. Mainly we sell tanks and dry goods and a lot of the articles have nothing to do with anything that we sell. They are just meant to be Informative. So with that said it's more about imparting information than anything. As for vague points if you give me examples I can certainly supply you with information. Cheers!

 

[reefwars]

I'm not sure adding animals you can't keep track of is a wise idea , for example the brittle stars I've seen them wipe a tank out smothered every available inch of space even the gorgs had stars wrapped around them. You have a recommendation of how many to add for example but yet say nothing of how fast they reproduce or the consequences of that or how to fix it etc.


Some of those animals also have risks that should be known , more detail on lifespans etc.

If you start a thread on it I'd love to hear about the systems and how these were the reason for success with them

 

[Captainsreef]

Good food for a newly update article perhaps...thanks for the input and I will work on it.I have never had plague proportion problems with the tiny stars though but I shall get to work.

 

[reefwars]

I did like it I even read it again just now , I'm not arguing the point that these animals dont have a place but adding these tiny animals also have side effects

What happens when a food source runs out , interactions with corals or fish etc.

Cheers

 

[Captainsreef]

I did like it I even read it again just now , I'm not arguing the point that these animals dont have a place but adding these tiny animals also have side effects

What happens when a food source runs out , interactions with corals or fish etc.

Cheers

Yes it does the side effects are a better functioning reef tank with a higher index of species diversity. There's also a company in Hawaii I believe that sells thousands of these clean up crews and they are awesome. As for plabue proportions of micro stars I read some stuff and it looks like hobbyists that have no idea how to slim down the populations of these when needed if they do reach those levels. In nature there are many components that inhabit the sand and to expect a reef aquarium to be any diferent merely because it's contained in a glass box would be misinformed to say the least. I do read these forums a lot and I goves me a headache all of the bad information passed along etc. However I am a professional.

 

[Captainsreef]

Oh and food sources shouldnt run out if you are feeding your aquarium the proper types of foods and at the proper levels for the stocking of your tank. The idea is to create a more biologically diverse tank that functione must like it's freshwater cousin the planted aquarium. A freshwater planted aquarium if done properly takes very little maintenance other than water changes every now and then and these types of tanks do the exact same when I set them up. So what I'm saying is that aquarists are often looking for the band aids of technology to do things that nature has already evolved to do and does much better on its own if simply supplied with the correct means to this end. Like the article I wrote about corals and reef aquariu lighting for example....all the forums focus on the technology of lighting and no mention is ever made as to the actual natural history of the corals in question so I wrote that article. Its a very popular one as well and the reason is for this novel approach to the problem. So that's a few examples and yes it does have an effect on a reef tank to add these animals but I have never had a bad one. In fact I have never had a tank crash and the reason for that primarily would be a high species index. Thanks for all the input. Cheers!

 

[Bilk]

The release will happen due to microbial action and bulk flow, I'd guess, but small animals might do some of the work, too. I have no idea of the time vs percentage released chart might look.

LOL Seems there's two conversations happening here. One about detritus in relation to PO4 levels and one about critters to help with tank maintenance by consuming detrital matter. I guess they're related. :spin2:

But back to the subject of my OP, the thing is, if it's microbial action (bacterium working on it?) wouldn't they be consuming it, converting it to fuel/food and not liberating it to the water column? Is what may be occurring similar to active transport or ion transport where molecules move from a place of high concentration to a place of lower concentration to equilibrate as you suggested? Or is detrital matter just very unstable where the ions are loosely bound, thus easily releasing them into the water column? If it's the latter, then the time test should show that. Given more time, the level of PO4 in the waste water should rise as more PO4 is released. If it's the former, then it will remain the same as it stays in equilibrium as you suggest.

I'm trying to understand how some tanks with no substrate, high water movement and effectively very little detrital buildup also have issues with PO4. Obviously detrital matter isn't the only source for it, but then maybe it's not a significant source for it either.

Well this was just my little mad science experiment after cleaning the sump. The water was sitting there and so was my ULR checker, so I figured what the heck.

 

[Big E]

I'm not sure some detritus in a sump is much of an issue, but if the detritus is on live rock or another area where it's going to receive light, nuisance algae is sure to follow. Once that algae gets established it's very good at grabbing that detritus to grow.

I think it's still a good idea to clean the sump occasionally as I think we've all accidently disturbed that muck and had it get pushed back into the display.

 

[Captainsreef]

Yeah it's 2 conversations that are interrelated but covering different aspects has been an interesting thread hahahaaha I do agree with Ed and typically if I clean the sump I do it once every few months and on an off week for cleaning the display as I don't want to disturb too much at once.

 

[bertoni]

Yes it does the side effects are a better functioning reef tank with a higher index of species diversity.

How do you know that's true?

Actually, I probably should split the animal discussion into a separate thread, since it's not relevant to the original topic.

 

[Bilk]

I'm not sure some detritus in a sump is much of an issue, but if the detritus is on live rock or another area where it's going to receive light, nuisance algae is sure to follow. Once that algae gets established it's very good at grabbing that detritus to grow.

I think it's still a good idea to clean the sump occasionally as I think we've all accidently disturbed that muck and had it get pushed back into the display.

I agree with both statements you made here. Yes we've all seen how latent detritus in the rock structure fosters growth of macro alga. Then that alga traps more detritus and the situation worsens as you also explained. However I'm still trying to get an explanation of how detritus releases nutrients to the water column.

If bacterium/microfauna is acting upon it, it's doing so to obtain those nutrients. So they're not being released to the water column, but are being consumed and then hopefully the skimmer works to remove the bacterium/microfauna from the system. If there's another mechanism working on the detritus, a chemical reaction at work, allowing the detritus to release nutrients, I'd like to know what that is.

If the nutrients are bound up in the detritus I can only see an how an acidic environment would foster that. Reefs and our tanks are an alkaline environments. Does the region local to the detritus acidify and cause the nutrients to become unbound? There is common believe that calcium carbonate either absorbs or adsorbs (not sure which) PO4. If alkalinity drops significantly enough, it will release it back to the water column. Is there another way in which the system will act upon the detritus to unbind the PO4 and release it to the water column? Again I'm no chemist or biologist so I'm here to learn

 

[bertoni]

I'm not sure why you think that the decay process won't release nutrients to the water column. Ammonia is a byproduct of protein metabolism, for example, and is going to be released. That can be measured in the tank cycling process.

 

[Bilk]

I'm not sure why you think that the decay process won't release nutrients to the water column. Ammonia is a byproduct of protein metabolism, for example, and is going to be released. That can be measured in the tank cycling process.

What causes the "decay"? It has to be biological or chemical, unless there's another process I'm missing.

My opinion is the biological decay would be the result of bacterium or microfauna breaking it down and they would be doing so as scavengers for the nutrients present in the detritus, thus not releasing them to the water column. If it's chemical, then what is at work here? I asked if it could be localized acidification. That would be a process that could release the nutrient ions, but how does that occur in an alkaline environment?

Is there another method other than the two I mentioned? I guess mechanical is one, but how would that apply? Mechanically breaking it down would just be making the particle smaller but not releasing the ions into the water. However, I'll try another test for the mechanical aspect. I'll test just the water filtered of sediment and then use a small electric hand mixer to work the sample, filter it and see what results that provides.

Edit: Yes ammonia is released from protein metabolism, but that's just the point - something is using the proteins as fuel. Similarly something that is acting on the detrital waste is utilizing it as fuel and those would probably be the residual nutrients stored in it.

 

[Big E]

I'd be curious to see if you tested the detritus in the display if the nutrient level was higher. The reason I say that is that the detritus may be inert but that could be catchall areas where food particles ect. settle.

My tank is bare bottom, so the only place I have build up is under rocks. Usually there's a small pool of detritus and I see scavengers under there like brittle stars or bristle worms.

It might be likely that the stuff in the display has something currently decaying whereas in the sump it's more just harmless dust.

In other words detritus as we define it, could be inert as far a nutrients but it's just a signal of where decaying particles will also settle.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

LOL Seems there's two conversations happening here. One about detritus in relation to PO4 levels and one about critters to help with tank maintenance by consuming detrital matter. I guess they're related. :spin2:

But back to the subject of my OP, the thing is, if it's microbial action (bacterium working on it?) wouldn't they be consuming it, converting it to fuel/food and not liberating it to the water column? Is what may be occurring similar to active transport or ion transport where molecules move from a place of high concentration to a place of lower concentration to equilibrate as you suggested? Or is detrital matter just very unstable where the ions are loosely bound, thus easily releasing them into the water column? If it's the latter, then the time test should show that. Given more time, the level of PO4 in the waste water should rise as more PO4 is released. If it's the former, then it will remain the same as it stays in equilibrium as you suggest.

I'm trying to understand how some tanks with no substrate, high water movement and effectively very little detrital buildup also have issues with PO4. Obviously detrital matter isn't the only source for it, but then maybe it's not a significant source for it either.
.

All heterotrophic organisms that consume organics release msot of the N and P in those organics because they have a higher need for the energy from the organic degradation than they have for N and P to build new tissues.

You, for example, release nearly all of the N and P in the foods you eat, and it is true of every heterotrophic organism.

The reason all tanks need to deal with N and P is because fish and other organisms that eat food excrete it directly. Nearly all the N and P they eat ends up int eh water as phosphate and ammonia.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What causes the "decay"? It has to be biological or chemical, unless there's another process I'm missing.

My opinion is the biological decay would be the result of bacterium or microfauna breaking it down and they would be doing so as scavengers for the nutrients present in the detritus, thus not releasing them to the water column. If it's chemical, then what is at work here? I asked if it could be localized acidification. That would be a process that could release the nutrient ions, but how does that occur in an alkaline environment?

It is both. Hydrolysis of proteins and other biomolecules happens at any pH, but is accelerated by enzymes or by high or low pH. Oxidation with O2 and other reactive molecules also takes place.

 

[bertoni]

As Randy has stated, very few, if any, organisms consume and retain all of their food. Anemones or corals with photosynthetic symbionts might come the closest. Animal digestion in general is very inefficient at extracting nutrient or energy. Most of what goes into a fish comes back out, maybe 90% or so, for example.