The Frogfish Files

[kpk]

Thanks for the ID Wee Man. I have been doing a little research and I think you may be right. Looking at pics on this thread and on zubi's it really looks like a pictus, but it could be a Commerson too, you think?

Kyle

 

[Wee Man]

It could be a commersons. I only say pictus because of the two (commersons and pictus), pictus is the more readily available species.

 

[kpk]

Pictus would be fine. He is cool either way. I need to get a pic of the esca when he shows it off...

 

[Reefcherie]

Good luck w/ your new angler! You can sure see a great example of camoflage there!

 

[uberfugu]

KPK, looks like multiocellatus

 

[uberfugu]

Well, I, like Mr. Ugly, would love to have a successful frogfish spawn but I'm trying to take a different route.

Norman (Mr. Ug) is working with A. dorehensis which is one of the smaller species (14 cm max per fishbase) and, like typical Antennarius species, has a raft of thousands of tiny eggs/fry. I'm trying to work with frogfishes that have fewer but larger eggs.

When Lophiocharon anglers spawn, the female attaches the fertillized eggs onto the male's body. The eggs are large and number in the hundreds instead of the thousands. I don't know if the fry go through a pelagic stage (like Antennarius fry). Scott Michael (Reef Fishes, V.1) tells anecdotally that, according to a LFS owner, the young hatch and are benthic, a minature version of their parents.

The parents were secretive during mating. They hid in their densely liverocked tank (50 gals). It has a 1" aragonite bed, salinity is at 33, temp at 75º-78ºF, Ca 350, dKH 8, skimmer and ozone. I had just done a 10% waterchange. Food consists of F/W ghost shrimp, S/W grass shrimp (both Palemonetes sp), defrosted silversides, and uberfugu fish sticks (J/K, I make a gelatin/fish/shellfish mix, freeze and feed via stick)

With work and all, I don't have a lot of time to document this spawn. Will update if successful

This image was enhanced with Photoshop (quality is still bad ... sorry )

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Wow... awesome!

Hey, I heard about you getting that green frog picked out for you a while back. This is too cool that it's part of a breeding pair now!

I want a baby green frog, Bryan

Hey, I'm on the 5th spawn of the dorehensis. 4th one didn't go anywhere, but this 5th batch has done really well in the new kreisel. 3rd day for the free swimming larvae. There's a ton of them too. I've been doing videos and pics everyday, but have been too busy to clean them up and post.

I posted a little info in the Fish Breeding forum. I thought I could get some feedback, but nothing yet.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=862599

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Here's a short vid from yesterday. Taken through a QX5 microscope. 3 day old larvae at 60x and 200x magnification. Pectoral fins became visible yesterday.

http://media.putfile.com/larvae-5th-batch-3rd-day-60x-and-200x

 

[Reefcherie]

:thumbsup: OK - that is just plain doggoned cool! Thanks for sharing!

 

[uberfugu]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7539707#post7539707 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mr. Ugly
Here's a short vid from yesterday. Taken through a QX5 microscope. 3 day old larvae at 60x and 200x magnification. Pectoral fins became visible yesterday.

http://media.putfile.com/larvae-5th-batch-3rd-day-60x-and-200x

Wow, are they eating rotifers?

 

[Mr. Ugly]

I still can't tell on the rotifers. I've been putting them in there. and the fish have been developing, but I don't know if it's been from the yolk reserves.

The larvae have been darkening up, and at least some of that is from pigmentation. I'm hoping that it is also from them taking in food.

I saw the larvae and rotifers under the scope, but didn't see any actual eating. I think I'll be finding out in the next day or so if I get a lot of losses.

I have a pod culture going also, and have been providing pod nauplii, I think/hope. I've wipe a section of the glass in the culture tank and rinse that into some tank water for the larvae.

 

[Marco67]

Arrhhhgg

Arrhhhgg

Edgar is dead
damit I new I shouldn't post pics.
I'm not sure what happened, 3 days ago I noticed he didn't seem to be interested in food, by yesterday his breathing was labored and this morning dead. All water tests look good, no real clue except maybe a small area of his tail had started to go translucent.
We are really bummed.

Now I'm struggling with justifying replacing him, is 1.5-2 years their natural life or just their average life in captivity? or do we know?

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Marco, really really sorry about your loss

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Video from yesterday. 4 day old larvae. Near the beginning of the vid, you can see a bulge on the larvae's left side. Same as on a lot of the other ones. Looks like maybe an intestinal loop. At about 80% through the vid, you can see a couple light colored spots on the back. Looks like maybe kidneys?

http://media.putfile.com/5th-batch-4th-day-200x

http://www.putfile.com/mr_ugly

 

[Reefcherie]

Re: Arrhhhgg

Re: Arrhhhgg

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7543826#post7543826 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Marco67
Edgar is dead
damit I new I shouldn't post pics.
I'm not sure what happened, 3 days ago I noticed he didn't seem to be interested in food, by yesterday his breathing was labored and this morning dead. All water tests look good, no real clue except maybe a small area of his tail had started to go translucent.
We are really bummed.

Now I'm struggling with justifying replacing him, is 1.5-2 years their natural life or just their average life in captivity? or do we know?

Sorry to hear that! I haven't seen anyone state wild longevity for frogfish that backed it up with any evidence for their statement. If someone has "Frogfishes of the World", I'd be interested to know if anything is said about longevity.

Fuggly (my avatar) died at the 28 month mark in my tank - and he/she was one of the longest in captivity that I've heard of. His diet, from a 1.5" juvenile was solely live marine feeder fish and marine shrimp - both gut loaded w/ the same quality food I feed all my saltwater fish in my main tank.

I think we still have a lot to learn about keeping anglers healthy.

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Cherie, of course "you know who" has the Pietsche book

I wish I had a copy!

 

[Marco67]

Re: Re: Arrhhhgg

Re: Re: Arrhhhgg

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7544440#post7544440 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Reefcherie
Sorry to hear that! I haven't seen anyone state wild longevity for frogfish that backed it up with any evidence for their statement. If someone has "Frogfishes of the World", I'd be interested to know if anything is said about longevity.

Fuggly (my avatar) died at the 28 month mark in my tank - and he/she was one of the longest in captivity that I've heard of. His diet, from a 1.5" juvenile was solely live marine feeder fish and marine shrimp - both gut loaded w/ the same quality food I feed all my saltwater fish in my main tank.

I think we still have a lot to learn about keeping anglers healthy.

28 months ...congrats and that makes me feel a bit better (I think )
Mine/ours was ~3" when I got him/her so maybe already a year or so old? Who knows maybe that's a full life.
Oh well there is now a vacancy sign on an awesome species tank.
I think I'll be on a quest for info, and at the same time let some of my friends on the 104 know I'm looking.
Marc

 

[uberfugu]

No mention of angler longevity in Frogfishes of the World

This is Dr. McCosker's (Steinhart Aquarium) response to the question:

"We didn’t keep longevity records on all of the collection in that we literally had thousands of specimens. We did carefully follow large and very unique specimens, like the Australian lungfishes, but I must confess that we didn’t keep records on the frogfishes. And, I’m not aware of what their natural longevity might be. I suspect that the best answer you might find will be in Ted Pietsch’s book on frogfishes. I do recall that specimens of Antennariius avalonis and A. sanguineus from Baja lived several years in the Aquarium, and it stands to reason â€"œ once they became established in the collection they were fed every day and received appropriate medication if that ever became necessary. And of course we didn’t put them in displays that had potential predators. So, if well kept, it’s probably safe to say that they could probably live longer in an aquarium than in the wild. But I don’t know if those data exist."

I still think that the bulk of early-captivity deaths among frogfishes are related to collection, shipping, and multiple acclimations that just stress the little guys to death.

I had a brief conversation with Richard (Lefty) and he brought up decompression related problems. Even from as shallow as 30 ft, he said the captured fishes balloon up like a puffer. This can't be good. It is conceivable that the frogfishes suffer internal trauma from which they can't recover.

The death of frogfishes in long-term captivity would seem to stem from 1) nutritional deficiencies or imbalances, 2) environmental issues, and 3) old age.

I'd also like to take a poll and see how many frogfish owners quarantine their acquisitions the recommended 4-6 weeks

 

[bookfish]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=5142689#post5142689 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by uberfugu
I suspect that transit stress is a major factor in the demise of frogfish. Lefty, I agree with Cherie that these guys are so easy to catch; cyanide isn't needed. They certainly show symptoms though, delayed death, respiratory issues, sudden death.

On another forum site, there have been a lot of discussions about this problem in frogfishes. They seem to follow two patterns, death within two weeks from acquisition and a mid-term captivity death from say 6 months to a year. This excludes death from accidents, gross husbandry issues, or tankmate issues.

In the case of early deaths there seem to be two patterns, massive bacterial/parasitic infections and unexplained, 'overnight' deaths. While the former could be from our new frogfish not having natural antibodies or resistance to pathogens in their new system (per LisaD, this has been found in seahorse populations), I think it would be more logical to assume that transit stress (high ammonia levels, temp fluctuations, varying water parameters, and physical abuse including air embolis) would weaken the fish to the point that it would be susceptable to disease. The later deaths would seem to be gill burn from metabolite excesses in transit. These symptoms are similar to cyanide poisoning.

As to frogfish deaths in cases of an established fish in a mature system, there was an account by Dr Bruce Carlson when he was at the Waikiki Aquarium of established, long-term commerson anglers succumbing to either a bacterial or fungal disease. I believe the aquarium used a flow-though system of fresh ocean water and the commersons is endemic to Hawaii so it would seem that water quality is not the issue. Most likely the problem is dietary in nature. Several years ago, I spoke with Dr. McCosker at the california Academy of Science and he felt that dietary problems were the probable cause of early frogfish deaths in captivity. I haven't cut open any deceased frogfish, wouldn't know the difference between a sick one and a healthy one but I have been trying to avoid the one-food syndrome (a diet too high in Doritos is not good)

Sorry for being wordy

Sorry, redundant post. -Jim

 

[Mr. Ugly]

Posted a link to newly edited vid of previous mating behavior.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7557960#post7557960

Click on my www to get to previous vids.