The Great Picasso Clown Question.... (subtitled : is it a truly beautiful scam?)

[kathainbowen]

Ok, so, while perusing my local LFS, I chanced upon a rather intriguing little clownfish in a tank away from the others. It was in with two other perfectly normal false perculas and one false percula that had the classic basic patterning of a "picasso" clown. While I would have loved the "picasso" perc, it looked sickly after being picked on by pretty much all of the other three clowns.

However, the intriguing little fish in question was a rather unique little clownfish, looking about halfway between a standard false percula and a "picasso" percula. However, it wasn't quite all the way there. The third stripe, located on the caudal penduncle, lacks the classic, sharp black border of a standard false percula, and bears a small smudge of orange in the white, which appears truer to the "picasso" percula. The middle bar also extends further foward at the buldge that on the standard false percula, but not as far as the "picasso." The top of that bar also extends further back than on the standard false percula. The front bar is utterly normal. It's just like I said, it looks about half way between a "picasso" and a standard.

By now, you're probably as sick of seeing the quotation marks as I am.

However, there's a point behind the quotation marks. See, I'm very curious about how this "picasso" morph of the false percula came to be. My understanding of it is that, like misbarring, the trait is a recessive quality to the false percula. However, misbarring is something that has been noted and tied closely with imbreeding, especially excessive imbreeding of clownfish. So, did the "picasso," "jigsaw," and "snowflake" patternings develop as a result of imbreeding with clownfish in aquaculture facilities that was left to go unchecked, or what happened? How did it come to be?

Ok, so I'm starting to go off topic.

What I was really curious about, for all you guys out there, was if anyone had a direct understanding of the breeding implecations of certain aspects in clownfish. Has anyone had a chance to track and see the probabilities of certain individual aspects of patterning in clownfish to see what the resulting offspring might look like?

.....???

:reading:

 

[FMarini]

You can always ask the guys at ORA who introduces these mis-bars. I don't believe inbreeding is the way they got these morphs.


What Colby states below, and in regards to the naked clowns- they do have naked adult clowns that produce naked offspring in high number

Here is what I wrote earlier - this apparently is incorrect- i'm leaving this here for sake of completeness
I did have a conversation w/ them in regards to not only misbarring but also the naked morph which they are selling as well.
The mis bars are truely mis barred offspring that they found in their populations and they have selectively propagated them, IIRC the folks at ORA will mentioned that misbarred adults do give rise to a "mix ofy similar misbarred offspring and not so similar- if not normal looking clowns. IIRC the exact copies of the adults are pretty rare (like 1:100), so if your plan is to bred up this misbarring pattern and get rich, you'll need to produce alot of fish. This of course suggests that mis-barred parents do not "bred true".
Next the "naked" clown morph, again like the misbarred clown the naked adults did not bred true and the naked "colorations was IIRC a 1:500 offspring mutation, and again IIRCy ORA only had small numbers of pair of naked adults that would even give raise to a few naked offspring/ breeding epsiode. The reason ORA is able to put out a number of these fish is volume, you would not believe the sheer
number of clown/month this facility produces.
end incorrect info

Now I will say that I have alot of IIRC in this conversation....
so please contact the folks at ORA to get the skinny.

I could be wrong (and am obviously so)


edited: for "IIRC"s

 

[kathainbowen]

Oh, no no no. I have only intentions for my two guys. In fact, I'd be more than happy if the clowns spawned, but that would only be like a "oh-what-a-neat-thing-just-happened." I really don't have the space available in my house to culture enough rotifers and food stuffs for baby fish to even HOPE to rear even 1 baby. I have no plans to breed my two clowns, and, if they did breed, I have no intentions of even attempting to rear the offspring.

In fact, my other false perc is a complete and total standard false percula, a rather perfect example right down to minute facial features. Even if I intended to breed them.... it would never work considering the seemingly recessive quality to the genes that control the so-called "picasso" or "jigsaw" patterning. .The misbarred clown is also a bit.... malformed (it probably should have been culled. it's facial structure is a bit.... off) The blendy-one is just my cute little freak of nature (*what can I say? I love freakish animals. My cat has one blue eye and one green eye).

I have just been very curious as of late to the sudden upswing in what I suppose could be considered "designer" clownfish, rather like the selective breeding of cichlids, both south american and african, to create unusual strains that are not wild appearing. I've been very fascinated by the sudden trend in designer style fish, especially considering the morphs and unusual hybrids you see coming out of East Asia these days (*short bodied koi anyone?). Genetic shifting these days has become a rather strange vogue in fish keeping right down to the glofish (modified zebra danios that glow red under uv light), but it seemed like the inherent "newness" to breeding in saltwater preventing such hybridizing and modification at the moment.

..... basically, to sum it up..... I'm just curious staring at this fish and pondering the genetics behind how we got to this misbarring and the more extravagent misbarring.

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

It seems it's the same selective breeding process that has been used in freshwater fish for decades. Nothing super special. Find the offspring of two adults that look similar to what you want, breed them, pick the next two offspring that look even closer to what you want, breed those, and repeat until you get what you want.

 

[kathainbowen]

..... under my sig, you'll see 16+ years hobby experience. 5+ of those years was spent with my father passing down the "family secrets." In reality, while the "family secrets" included poor care for fish when it came to maintenance, it was more speciically about the art of selectively breeding fancy guppies. I am quite familiar with the process with freshwater fish....

=P

However, another important part of understanding these so-called arts of selective breeding and hybridization, was understanding the importance of imbreeding to get the trait, and out-crossing to establish a sustainable line for the trait to be carried along. My father taught me the same thing his father taught him. Once a trait is established that is desireable, the trait should be carried with the usage of bland, common, hardy females. The females of a line are never going to be as nice as males, so there is little sense in worrying about protecting their bloodlines. However, the common females will bring in new blood to the lineage, revitalizing what damage may have been done by imbreeding. My grandfather and my father both taught breeding, even of something as seemingly small and insignificant as the common guppy, to be a great art, something to be respected.

Commercially bred show guppies and livebearers used to be a thing of true beauty. They weren't quite as exotic as they are now, but they had exquisite coloring and hardiness to boot. The lines were being maintained somehow. Now, through over demand and the poeciliad's own natural tendancy to imbreed, the lines are becoming very weak and strained. The females aren't producing the numbers they once were, and they just aren't living as long and healthy lives as they once had.

Koi are starting to see the same thing. Certain koi were tracked with family transactions, particularly doweries, and were regularly marked as living 100+ years. The oldest recorded koi lived to the rumored ripe old age of 240, outliving all of its owners. However, especially in domestic koi, they are not living as long of lives. Granted, a part of this is due to the sudden upswing of SVC and KHV, as well as other diseases that are growing resistant to treatment methods, but it is also due to imbreeding to attempt to fix elaborate patterning. However, now, the average expected lifespan of a koi is 20-75 years.

The kohaku koi reminds me of our little clownfish scenario, which is part of what has had me really curious. The kohaku, for those not familiar, is a white bodied koi with red markings. These markings run in "steps" of one, two, three, or four steps. Each step, is supposed to be clear, with crisp color and sharp edges. However, domestic breeders especially, have been overbreeding and imbreeding just to produce thousands of kohaku to meet the growing number of ponds in America. Other breeders are still somewhat falling to imbreeding to meet standards of the "perfect" kohaku, with the rigid expectations for patterning. The expectations include even the aesthetic balance of the patterning, a truly rare thing rather like the unlikely patterning of picasso clown. Otherwise, like our friend the standard false percula clownfish, a common kohaku truly is a common fish.

I suppose, what I've really been beating around the bush about is pondering how such lines came to be in the picasso clown and how these lines are being established and maintained to create a sustainable line. My experience has often seen these designer lines become weak and sickly compared to the more "natural" lineages that are allowed to go without excessive imbreeding or demanding breeding schedules to meet commercial demands.



..... *phew* dude..... writing that post made me tired.... so.... if you're actually reading this now.... after having read all that..... I applaud you.... and I would give you a bowl of Choconilla cereal were you here.

 

[Travis L. Stevens]

You better start clapping and pouring cereal

You know, this is all theoretical, but I don't think that these have been around long enough to record or maintain any form of lineage. FWIW a local reefer, LotR_Clown, has recently sold some of his broodstock to various LFSs. As far as I've seen, none of them had complete stripes, and I believe the parents were full striped versions. Hopefully Kevin will jump on here and clear up any confusion that I might have.

On the other hand, maybe ORA has some tricks up their sleeves that they aren't letting out. Maybe they were smart and have traced lineage since the first male/female pair.

 

[kathainbowen]

I hope you like the Choconilla Krispies. I like them. They kind of smell like chocolate cake batter before you put milk on them. *happy cereal dance*

I've just been very intrigued by the case of the picasso clownfish since, right now, we're basically at the start of this whole sudden thing of seeing people attempting to make commercially viable strains of the color patterns or attempting to sell them. I just think it's neat to finally see fish morphing in its inception, since I most certainly wasn't around to see it for guppies, most livebearers, or koi.

..... and..... if I ever had any hope of breeding my clowns, it is all dashed to pieces. Pookie King of the Deep (never let people on your lj name your pets!), the original false percula, hates Minerva (again, with the other people naming your pets and why you should never let that happen), the picasso-esque clown. I sense eminent tank ejection within the next few days..... it's even sadder since the picasso-esque clown keeps trying to buddy up with the standard.

=(

 

[colby]

Keep in mind clownfish do not by any means follow th regular rules of genetics.

And it may have been said and I may have missed it in which case I apologize, however "Picasso's" are true perculas that come from one or more pairs of percs that simply have odd patterning. I have a Picasso that I may pair ith an Onyx to see if I can get a picasso type perc with more black.

Snowflakes on the other hand are false percula aka Ocellaris clowns that all come from a single pair of regular looking Ocellaris. For some reason or other this pair throws interesting looking fish.

Ocellaris x percula seem to produce a large amount of offspring that have lots of white. I would guess that the amount of white barring on these fish can be manipulated via hormone "therapy" during meta.

Again, just speculation. However one thing I feel quite confident about is that ORA does not produce any of its fish through inbreeding.

Colby

 

[FMarini]

Well.... after a formal education today--- I corrected my post above.

What Colby states is accurate. (except the hormone therapy stuff)

It appears that you just need to find the appropiate parents to get the appropiate offspring, and select for the right traits, no inbreeding. So it means we need to find really cool looking clown parents

 

[colby]

Hmm..my last post may have been a little ambiguous in regards to the hormone therapy.

I was not in any way stating that ORA or anyone else CURRENTLY manipulates Clownfish genes through hormone therapy. However I do maintain that it is very possible that it could be done. In fact there is some anecdotal evidence supporting this theory...

It is frequently done in both fresh and marine food fishes. No doubt the appearance of white pigmentation in Clownfish during metamorphosis is triggered by hormone stimulation within the Clownfish. It has already been documented that certain water traits such as amount of nitrogen compounds present in water during meta. will affect the bone structure and stripe development.

I think it is only a matter of time until someone breaks the code. Imagine the possibilities through hormonal stimulation in Clownfish during meta. It could result in very unique patterning. We would get all kinds of franken-fish. Of course many people may not like the idea.

What do you think Dr. Marini? Is that a little clearer?

Colby

 

[colby]

Another thing...mis-barred clowns correlates directly to water quality during meta. Some batches of fry will end up with more mis-bars than others, again due to water quality. However as previously stated the ORA "Naked's" are not a result of simply bad batches or luck of the draw.

The folks at ORA are all very nice and unlike many think they are not shrouded in some cloud of secrecy. Quite to the contrary they are very open and personable people. To my understanding there is no magic they employ, just simple conscious mariculture.

Colby

 

[kathainbowen]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9656664#post9656664 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by colby

I think it is only a matter of time until someone breaks the code. Imagine the possibilities through hormonal stimulation in Clownfish during meta. It could result in very unique patterning. We would get all kinds of franken-fish. Of course many people may not like the idea.

a.) On the franken-fish and people not liking the idea: I used to love a local PetSmart in Northern Atlanta. When Glofish first started hitting the market in Atlanta, they were quick to put up a sign about how, for ethics, they refused to carry fish that had been tampered with by humans, saying that such fish were unnatural and anomalies that weren't right...... Of course, this sign might have had more of an impact if it weren't right next to their fancy goldfish. =/

b.) On a more serious note:

I think it's quite true that we may very well be on our way to such franken-fish, as you call them. (I like to think of bangaii or pajama cardinals as "franken-fish," since they kind of look like three fish sewn together). I suppose that's why the picasso and snowflake patterned clownfish are such a unique thing right now (aside from the obvious draw to their patterning).

It's actually quite a fascinating trend across the board in several hobbies to find color morphs. In snakes, for instance, the ball python, red tail boa, burmese python, as well as several kingsnakes, milksnakes, and cornsnakes, are all being selective bred to produce interesting color morphs. Some of the morphs are simply color shifts, like the apricot pueblan milksnake. Others, like in the case of certain balls, and shifting to a growing trend in piebald patterning, rather similar to these clownfish morphs. It's an interesting market trend, despite the raising questions about selective breeding practices.

Although, it is an interesting point about the hormonal treatment during development. In freshwater, there has always been a trend to tamper with temperature and pH during carrying or while in eggs to produce a higher gender specific count. It's also been used with reptile species to induce higher population counts of a certain gender to fill a need. It would be quite interesting to see what comes about with saltwater fish and different treatments during different stages of growth, since their growth is so different from freshwater fish. I would be curious to see if anyone has tried this before.

c.) On a cereal note:
Thanks Colby for the info! You rock and totally deserve-th the Choconilla cereal!

d.) On another sad turn of events:
Got to figure a way to get one or the other out of my tank. The tank's too densely packed for a fish trap or net, and taking everything apart would be a bad thing right now (*precarious perching would most likely cause a total collapse at this point). But eviction of one or the other is definitely going to happen probably in the next 72 hrs. That sucks.

 

[colby]

Cool..I am glad I could be of some help.

And I LOVE cereal...

Like I said Clownfish genetics have proven to be a very interesting thing.

In regards to the "franken-clownfish"...

I know many people have stated that they worry clownfish will end up like guppies and cichlids etc...however to that I say do not worry. Clownfish are a whole different matter. Unlike guppies you cannot "accidentally" end up with cross bred baby clowns in the breeding colony...

I personally am a fan of odd looking clowns and I look forward to more advances in the area of clownfish breeding and genetics. However with that said I must say that there is nothing better looking than a nice pair of regular old Ocellaris staring out at me from their anemone as they gaurd their egg clutch.


Colby

 

[MimicTang]

You get so many more morphs because the survival rate in the wild is like 20 in a million isnt it?

 

[colby]

IDK exactly what it is but yes. And no doubt a "picasso" clown in the wild would either not be accepted into the social structure or, more likely it would be a much more visual target for a predator.

 

[reefman13]

You can actually buy a mated pair of "Picasso Percula Clowns" caught from the ocean from DFS.......I have seen them multiple times on their 'Divers Den' page.

 

[aomont]

Hi David,
The ones I saw there where from Ocean Reefs and Aquariums (ORA) not from the real ocean.
Anderson.