The inwall 380 starfire reborn

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11877857#post11877857 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mrcrab
Hey Tom,

What's your total water volume and is it all connected...does the whole volume get dosed with the shot glass?

main tank 380g - minus rocks, sand, etc so I would say maybe 350g ? (the rocks are very pourous (sp?) or I would have gone with a lower #)
two 150g sumps. Top sump is the fuge and is kept around 80% or better full, so 130g there. The bottom sump is closer to 50% or less full (when everything is running) so that is around 70g.
The skimmer, even with the shorter body, is still at least 60g.

350g tank
130g fuge
70g sump
60g skimmer

610g total

So just a bit over 600 gallons, give or take, but likely that # is on the low side (taking all of the plumbing, large Ca Rx, etc into account). So somewhere between 600g and 630g if I had to guess.


and yes, everything is 100% connected (so long as the return pump is running).

HTH :)
 
As I had posted previously, we had an incident where the Alk and Ca spiked in our tank, the Alk significantly more so. That triggered a series of events that snowballed and let's just say "rolled downhill from there". I am at the point now where I am giving serious consideration to going FOWLR. I will try to chronicle what has transpired over the last month and a half that will bring us up to where we stand now (with probably 60% of our corals overall, 40% of our acros, left alive and no idea when the bloodletting will stop). I am going to post the time periods in separate posts, so that people can quote one or the other without having to dig through one massive post, and also because it is often easier to read alot of smaller posts versus one large honkin' one :)


02/01 - 02/16
Due to an error in adjusting the CA Reactor (and in judgment) the Alk and Ca levels in the tank rose very high. When I finally caught the problem (alerted to it by the burnt SPS tips) the Alk was way above 18 and Ca above 475. Both were tested w/ Elos test kits. I don't know the exact #s because I stopped adding the reagents at 18 for Alk and 475 for Ca. When I stopped the Alk test, the test water color was still a strong blue, that tells me that Alk was waaay up there. I don't know how high it can go before it all starts precipitating out ? Luckily the PH was not majorly impacted, at least not long term, although I had not yet calibrated the PH probe, when I finally did get that done the PH was in line. As for why I stopped the tests "mid way", I already knew they were high and wasting the reagents to see how high would not have changed my course of action to try to resolve the condition, which was to shut down the C02 to the reactor for several days and then check the levels again. It took about a week to get the levels back down and dialed in (and I am still trying to dial it in..for reasons that will be apparent later on).

Parameters :

Alk : 18+
Ca : 475+
PH : 8.??
Salinity : 1.026
NO3 : 5 - 10
PO4 : .01


Observations :

(Previously posted)
1. There were several corals that colored up better than I had ever seen them, and also appeared much healthier in general (but I also changed ballasts around that same time and originally had attributed the changes to the ballast). Either way they are definitely not impacted by the higher than normal Ca/Alk levels.. but others are definitely feeling it.. we already lost 2 small colonies
2. The PO4 and NO3 levels are almost non-existent. I base this statement on a quick test that I have backed up with a test kit before (but didn't this time around since it was always accurate in the past). We dose sugar. I have always been able to tell our DOC levels by how the tank reacts to the sugar addition. A little cloudy means low to mid levels, very cloudy means I waited too long. I dosed a fairly large amount (based on previous dosing history) for the first time in almost a month (normally I do it twice weekly) and there was 0 bacterial bloom reaction. Not even any more film than normal on the front glass by the end of the day (I dosed in the morning).
3. The tank water is the clearest I have seen in a long time (except for right after sugar dosing in the past). The water is consistently clearer, and the front glass has required less maintenance to keep it clean also.
(Newly noted)
4. The goniopora that we have exhibited tremendous polyp extension during this time of heightened levels. The extension returned to it's previously short state in between feedings (which are not as often as I should, but due to a lack of time right now I am feeding just enough. I will likely find this guy a new home with someone who has the time to take care of it properly).
 
02/16 - 02/29
I was able to bring the Ca and Alk levels down to a reasonable level, and the corals started to recover, but only minimally, then they started dying again. Corals that had lost some color before now started to bleach and die. My work schedule was through the roof and I just managed to keep up with basic maintenance, IE:L cleaning skimmer, trimming back macros in the fuge, cleaning/re-aligning noisy powerheads, etc.


Parameters :

Alk : 10
Ca : 450
PH : 8.??
Salinity : 1.026
NO3 : ??
PO4 : ??


Observations :

Some corals continued to thrive while others just withered and died. LPS seemed significantly less impacted than SPS, some LPS even appeared to grow better/faster. No noticeable affect on the zoas, inverts or fish.


03/01 - 03/18
I calibrated the PH probe only to find out that it was worthless. A brand new Pinpoint probe, but I had waited so long to try to calibrate it that there was no way I could return it. So I dug out an old probe, cleaned it up and calibrated it. Our PH reads around 8.13 at night and peaks around 8.21 during the day. I attribute the reverse lighting on the large, full fuge for the lack of a large PH swing. Tested the Alk and Ca again several times throughout the 2 1/2 week period and adjusted the reactor PH and output accordingly each time. It had been relatively dialed in before, but with the ongoing carnage and death of our corals the usage levels kept dropping, so it was like trying to hit a moving target (that was rapidly falling). It has not been a good month for the tank. We lost many incredible corals, LEs and unknowns alike. :(

Parameters :

Alk : 11
Ca : 450
PH : 8.1 - 8.2
Salinity : 1.026
NO3 : ??
PO4 : ??


Observations :

Some corals continued to thrive while others just withered and died. LPS seemed significantly less impacted than SPS, some LPS even appeared to grow better/faster. No noticeable affect on the zoas, inverts or fish.
 
03/19 - 03/21

I finally got some time to test the nitrates and phosphate levels. Even though the water was clear and there was no real sign of nuisance algae or cyano, I was at wits end to figure out what was causing the deaths. The nitrates read high (with an Elos test kit), but not enough so to cause the deaths I was experiencing. I had already started working out the details of our previous plan to do a massive water change. Because of time constraints I didn't want to make up RO/DI water and mix salt (not to mention a severe lack of space to do so currently due to some already started, but still incomplete, household projects taking up space in the garage. We have two 55 gal drums that I was going to clean out and take to our LFS to get filled w/ sea water. I had not yet worked out a "bulk pricing" arrangement with them yet, and was also still working out some other details. Even @ approx 100 gallons for the WC that was still barely more than 15% or out total water volume. Then I finally got to testing the phosphate levels (with a Hanna colorimeter) and the first reading came in at .30.. I had to blink a couple of times to read it. So I broke out some phosphate media we have, PhosAR I think it was, and added it in a bag in a very high flow area in the sump. I also dosed a moderate dosing of sugar. Even though I had reason to question the reading, I was still dubious that the phosphates could actually be causing the coral deaths that I was seeing (in some, while others appeared to still flourish). I had originally thought that perhaps something had fallen into the tank or sump and was poisoning the water, but I could not find anything that would have been doing that.

Parameters :

Alk : 10
Ca : 425
PH : 8.1 - 8.2
Salinity : 1.0255
NO3 : 25 - 30
PO4 : .3 (questionable reading)


Observations :

I did some reading on the Hanna meters and found that the phosphate meter is somewhat known for errant readings, although most of those are attributed to the reagent batches. After some additional tests over the weekend I feel that the levels were more in line with .10 or so, which is still pretty high. The salinity dropped a bit due to the larger amount of skimmate being pulled out (from sugar dosing) and it being replaced w/ top off, but the drop was minute, and I compensated for it over the weekend.
 
03/22 - 03/26

I checked the TDS of the top off water and it was 1 PPM coming out of our reservoir, which matched the 1 PPM going into the reservoir from our RO/DI unit. Time to change the filters and media in the RO/DI unit. I have spares, just need the time to make the change. Did multiple phosphate tests, both to double check each other and also to track the results of the various phosphate export methods. The test from the 22nd through the 26 ran at .07 down to .035. I now do 2 tests each time and average the results. Today's test results were .2 and .5, hence .035 as the end result. I tested before and several hours after a pretty large sugar dose and it was .07 before and rang in around .05 about 6 hours later (once the water had all cleared). I also ordered some Korallin PO4 minus and Caribsea Phos Buster Pro from Marine Depot last week and it arrived yesterday. I used today's test results to decide if I wanted to dose either one today. I am still undecided if I want to continue with my current remediation methods (and maybe change out the media in the sump as well), or dose one of these products. They claim to bind to phosphates and then they will be exported by the skimmer. Reviews on MD do report increased skimmer activity when they are used. I will likely wait another day or so to avoid crashing the PO4 levels too far too fast. I probably already pushed those limits just this past week. I do know that I want/need to get our levels down even further, in the long run. Maintaining these levels (Alk, Ca, NO3, PO4, etc) for the next couple of weeks will tell me whether or not there are larger issues at work that are causing our coral issues.

Parameters :

Alk : 10
Ca : 425
PH : 8.1 - 8.2
Salinity : 1.026
NO3 : 5
PO4 : .035

Observations :

The coral deaths had been coming at a much faster pace up until last week. In the beginning they would take days to finally succumb and die (which was painful to watch), now they are more or less RTNing overnight. I cannot tell for sure, but it seems that the downward slide has at least slowed since I reduced the PO4 levels in the tank, but again, only time will tell on that one.




I will try to take some pictures later on today, as the non-SPS livestock is doing great, and with all of the water cleaning activities the water is really clear.
 
Wow Tom...rough time. I had that going on last year too...

Food for thought: Maybe the increase in reactor output also increased the PO4 being produced and the system couldn't keep up? This seems to be a reasonable assumption based on the data you have presented IMO.

Remedy: Try soaking your Ca media in RO/DI. WHat I do is put it in a 5g bucket filled with RO/DI, soak it for a day, test the water. Then I empty and re-fill with RO/DI, soak it again. I do this until the test comes up zero. Then and only then will I employ the media in my reactor.

I also have the effluent going through GFO and doubled up fine socks BEFORE it hits the tank water.

Try swapping out some sand for fresh. This will give you a binding point and a little breathing room while you get things to settle down.
 
Here are two pictures that I took last night. The first w/ a flash (the front hood door was intended to be temporary, but due to other obligations it has become more premanent than we would like. It will be replaced with something more aesthetically suitable.. as time permits *which means sometime next year.. if i am lucky*).

Tank_03_26_08_007.jpg


and one w/o the flash

Tank_03_26_08_004.jpg
 
Tom- Hang in there buddy. I know that you are really busy right now. This hobby really sucks when we are in threnches. I feel you pain as my tank's livestock is in the new 180 now. :(

How is your cleaner wrasse? I was thinking of adding one to aid in my fish populations overall health.
 
cleaner wrasse has been with us for almost 2 years now and is doing well. I know that alot of people say that they don't do well in captivity, but I think that we got one of the breeds that can derive nutrition from other sources. In our case he eats pellets, chopped shrimp, Arcti-Pods, etc. But I did read that other cleaner wrasses will also eat other food sources, but are not capable of obtaining sustenance from it. Ours appears to do just fine with it. Plus now we have the 3 butterflies and multiple Tangs, so there is plenty of "cleaning" opportunities for him :)

And yea, we are slammed busy with almost no time for the tank, but just looking at the pictures, we can't complain about water clarity. The tank is 4' from front to back and the racks you can see through to behind the tank are almost another 3'+ behind the tank, and you can still see them clearly enough. If not for the coral deaths I would be very happy with the tank. But with all that is going on I am still seriously considering going FOWLR, or maybe just all LPS or something *sigh*. :(.

The pictures got resized when I uploaded them to our web hosting company, so I am going to try to crop and upload one again in a larger size. I also keep meaning to post a stock list, but haven't gotten around to it. Not much has changed, no new additions since the last list that I can think of (without looking at the list to double check).
 
This is always part of the learning curve Tom. And certainly how we determine what equipment really is suitable for our SPS tanks. Believe me I learned a similar lesson with regards to my old doser. I am having trouble with my kalk stirrer and contemplating building or buying a Deltec style one. It's not that my current stirrer is a bad one, but that the Deltec design is safer and has about zero probability of getting gummed up.

Unfortunately the Deltec is about $1700! :eek:
 
Here is a bigger version of the flash picture, with the flash "splash" at top cropped out, along w/ the wall beneath the tank.

This one is 1024 wide... I wonder what the max size we can post is ? I have another resized to 1200 wide, but I don't know how many run a screen size as wide as I do, so I held off posting that one :)

Tank_03_26_08_007_cropped1024.jpg


You can see alot of dead corals in this picture, if you look closely enough. Even more so in the larger versions I have *sigh*.
 
BTW, "dead" corals can come back. I have had a few that died off and re-grew later. What I do is place them in an out-of-the way place and try to forget about them. Often they re-grow. I have a birdsnest that grew from a tiny frag to larger than a soft ball, and then dropped dead. That was a few months ago, and now it has 3 fingers with new flesh on them.
 
Sorry to hear of your loses Tom.

I agree with Jonathon in regards to forgetting about the corals and see if any growth comes about, I have frags I thought were goners, come back.
 
Time to try to resurrect this thread, for better or worse. I went back and forth in my head about posting, since most of the update is bad and not much good :(. But I wanted to share my experiences to see if it would benefit anyone else to learn from my mistakes/missteps. It won't be pretty :(

The tank is pretty much a "ghost tank" in so far as SPS goes, there are a few LPS and zoas left also, but we did suffer some losses in that area as well. We also lost probably 40% of our fish, with a few notables.

Here is a picture of what it looks like right now :

InWall_12182008_01_resized.jpg


You can see the desvastation that has taken it's toll on our tank (I did say that it wouldn't be pretty :(). The way things went I would swear that some sort of toxin made it's way into the water system somewhere/somehow.

We rearranged the rockwork and took one of the larger pieces out, to open the tank up more and help w/ the flow. We moved the large sqaumosa clam further back a bit and one of the clown pairs started hosting in it :

InWall_12182008_02_resized.jpg


So, here is what we have left fish-wise :

1 orange shoulder tang
1 tomini tang
1 powder brown tang
1 golden angel
1 cleaner wrasse
1 ornate wrasse (aka christmas wrasse)
1 orchid dottybacks
1 indigo dottyback
pair of ocellaris (hosted in a squamosa clam)
pod of 3 ocellaris (hosted in an RBTA)
1 female spotted mandarins
1 geometric hawkfish
1 Squamosa clam


Equipment update

We had been trying different Gyre flow patterns w/ our Vortecs, and had pretty good results from it, but we currently have two of our Vortecs in for service, so hopefully we will have those back before EOY so that we can continue to work on getting the flow patterns to where we want them.

Our skimmer is working a little better since we made some changes to it (outlined in the Volcano users thread here on RC). We are waiting on a modified volute for a new recirc pump for it which should take it up to where we want it's performance to be.

I added a doser (from Bulk Reef Supply) to dose vodka since when I tried dosing I couldn't keep up a good regime and a steady daily dose. Now I just check the PO4 and NO3 levels every couple of days and adjust the timer for the doser accordingly until I get it dialed in.

I also throttled back the lighting schedule and coverages (coverages since there weren't that many light-needy corals in the tank at this time, so I could centralize them adn the ligthing).

I have new filters to swap out int he RO/DI unit, but it is still producing 1 tds water (some feel anything over 0 is bad, others wait until it hits 3 - 5). I plan to try to swap it all out this weekend, weather permitting (since it will have to be done in the driveway, and I have had to scrape the ice off my windshield several times in the last week).

I also insulated the entire tank, to try to keep in some of the heat and keep down our electric bills for heating the tank this year. Being an In-wall tank that basically sits in the garage, I have to do all that I can to minimze heat loss.

I have removed the mesh screen from the top of the tank, as it was directly responsible for the death of at least 2 of our fish. I am working on a design for a replacement, but this one will be more of a tent than a cover (think of something like mosquito netting used for camping, but to keep the fish in, not mosquitos out). With the new design I should be able to use plain, cheap old netting from Home Depot, since it won't be under the lights, but "over" them.

I added some more switches and automation, but nothing major, just added another set of switched outlets for the Vortecs, so that I can turn them off one at a time for maintenance, instead of having to unplug them, etc, risking getting either the power supply or controller wet. I had bought the swtich set earlier in the year, but only just got around to installing it a month or two ago.



I did clean out the fuge last week. There was alot of chaeto and what not, but I also have a nice infestation of aiptasia in our top sump. Luckily it hasn't spread dramatically to the main tank (just a few visible in there).


So far I have refused to put anything new into the tank, either fish or coral, not until I can get it stabilized and showing signs of growth. Parameters all are reading in the "good" range, but I just feel like I am missing something. I want to do a massive water change, but this time of year is tough for a WC of any size (w/o drastically lowering the tank water temp w/ the "new" water). I hope to have more upbeat updates as soon as we get our pumps back, new skimmer pump and stabilize whatever else I am overlooking in the tank. We have reached out for assistance from both local and online sources (including vendors) and have to say that, with a few exceptions, everyone has really stepped up to try to help us out. I was surprised at the outpouring, adn without going into detail will say that we say more outreach from the vendors from than locals that we have known for years (and no, it was not about any cash transactions from the vendors, most all that I talked to offerred assistance w/ no strings or fees).
 
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Wow Tom, I am sorry to hear about the tank. I know that you have been going through a lot with the tank for awhile now. I miss running into you guys at the random fish stores. Hang in there Tom.
 
Too bad about your troubles, very sorry to hear it. Just curious, how do you attribute the death of "at least 2" of your fish to the mesh screen - were they entrapped in it?

I'm sure your tank will be back to its old form in a few months, keep plugging away, sounds like you're doing all the right things.
 
Mark
Thanks. We look forward to getting back into the swing of things and seeing you around the shops (eventually). Our little one is a pistol, so I am sure she will love making the rounds also (although not old enough to do anything but enjoy the pretty fish in the stores :)).

Dudester
Yes, basically the mesh became brittle enough to allow the fish to jump through it (not UV resistant enough IMO) and get caught on top. We lost our yellow coris wrasse and red tailed tamarin. The tamarin was over 2 years old and a healthy active member of our tank. We had a power outage and when power came back on he got spooked and jump through. Losing that fish broke my heart (and ticked me off that what I had bought to protect our fish ended up being what killed them).

Thanks for hte encouraging words. Hopefully we will be back w/o my feeling the need to drain and restart the whole darned tank :hmm4:
 
Tom it's nice to hear from you again! :D

I wasn't even sure you were even in the hobby anymore.

I'm glad things are slowly looking up for you again, and hopefully you will be on the upswing from all of this. The pics are depressing for sure, BUT if at all it shows how unpredictable this hobby can be even with the best efforts - things just happen.
 
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