The Moorish Idol Thread

[Paul B]

what can I use for sponge? Last I checked we don't grow it in the detroit river (yet). Lol

Are you sure? I havent dove in the Detroit river.

I know there are some marine frozen foods that are "supposed" to have sponge in them but I think it would be a very small amount if any.
I know some people keep Idols for a few years anyway with out sponge but from diving with them I know that is their main food source so there must be something in sponge that they need long term.
As I said many times on this thread, I used to feed mine pellets soaked in at first Selcon then later fish oil, I built a feeder that would supply those two times between feedings because Idols eat an awefull lot. I also used to feed bananas but they would only eat them after I froze them. I am sure all Idols will not eat bananas. I also used to mix bananas with Plaster of PARIS, Yes you read that correctly.
The plaster supplied calcium (I think) and the fish seemed to love it.
Of course I was able to locate and collect a New York sponge that grows prolifically here but only in the summer. It freezes well and my Idol would jump out of the water for it.
(no, I don't sell the stuff) I also fed him fresh clams and live worms every day.
My last one lived five years and died in an accident while I was away.
These are things I did because a moorish Idol is not like other fish that you can just buy and feed like almost all other fish. If that were true, more than one of the thousands and thousands that were collected would have lived more than five years.
If you are going to put one in your tank and feed it some angel formula and nori I can almost guarantee that it will not live for more than a couple of years, none do.
I still feel that they may have to live in a mated pair like I see them in the sea and the male leads the female to food which is almost always sponge.
They need to eat a few times a day and besides sponge I really don't know what exactly is missing in their care besides what I mentioned.
I am fairly confidant that if I had a little larger tank and I bought an Idol I could now keep one long term. But I did my homework by going to their home in Tahiti and spending time with them. Then devising ways that they could be fed a few times a day with a portion of their diet of live food.
So far there is no magic solution to keep this most beautiful animal.

 

[SDguy]

I'm still not clear how angels, many of which eat 99% sponge as adults, can live for years and years without it in captivity. I think they are just way more sturdy in captivity, especially after acclimation to captivity for a good amount of time. The don't die at the slightest mistake.

Seeing as my MI tripled in size, I'd also like to think that is a good indicator that it is getting all the nutrition it needs. We'll see as time goes on...

Now to just not mess things up on my part (which I think is the reason MI's die)... I've already given it ich once

 

[Paul B]

Mine also trippled in size but as you know no one has a 10 year old Idol and that fish should live at least that long.
I have also dove with angels and they do eat sponge along with all sorts of other things. But sponge is really the only thing I have seen Idols eat in the sea. I didn't spend a month with them so I don't know what else they eat but they eat an awful lot of this lime green sticky sponge.

 

[SDguy]

Mine darts all around the tank as fast as he can for food, streamer has never broken. Are you sure it was nipped and damaged? Thus leading to the break off? I have heard of plenty of different fish biting at the streamers.

I saw it happen... he flipped around quickly, after some food... he was near the MJ1200 MOD PH. Probably the flow from the powerhead combined with the hard 180 degree turn caused it. I also notice mine loved eating the algae in front of the powerhead. This lead to the dorsal ray being bent slightly from the flow blowing it "against the grain". The bend remains, even after transfer to the 240. I think size of tank has a lot to do with this.

I've seen the same thing with B&W heni's... only time I've ever seen adults with LONG dorsals was in GIANT public aquariums.

 

[SDguy]

Mine also trippled in size but as you know no one has a 10 year old Idol and that fish should live at least that long.

It's all statistics, Paul. Considering how extremely few stories one hears about VERY hardy fish reaching 10 years in captivity, it doesn't in the least surprise me that rather delicate fish reaching such an age are even more rare... I still attribute it to keeper error, not nutrition. You even said so yourself, you lost yours after 5 years due to something you did.

I guess, like I said, time will tell.

 

[pinnatus]

So you pretty much said what I said, a fish is bothering the MI. The streamer is being nipped at, they don't just fall off.

I think what I was trying to say is that they do just fall off. They also get nipped off. The flappy streamer without the filament grows fast but also falls off easier. The streamer with the filament takes longer to grow, but also is more sturdy. It, too, will fall off sometimes. It can get damaged, then it is only a matter of time. A fish can damage it, or it can get damaged without help. The streamer on my MI tends to be ~6", but sometimes is shorter and sometimes is longer. Right now there is a split in his dorsal fin about 2" from the fish body. I would not be surprised if he loses the streamer in the next week to where that split has happened. No worries, it will grow back. That is, provided it eats enough greens like algae or nori. If not, I find the streamer stops growing.

My MI is 3 1/2 years old, and pretty much only eats NLS pellets. And whatever it finds in the tank, mostly algae. I understand what Paul says about sponge, but mine does not get any sponge, and never really has in 3 1/2 years.

Mine has also been very hardy. I have lost several fish in the past 3 1/2 years due to ick, but the Moorish Idol did fine. It has had mild cases of ich but shook it off.

 

[Paul B]

It's all statistics, Paul. Considering how extremely few stories one hears about VERY hardy fish reaching 10 years in captivity,

Actually hardy fish usualy live for ten years or more unless we do something stupid.
I have rarely had any clownfish that didn't reach at least ten years old, the one I have now is almost 19.
Many of my fish lived well over ten years, even hippo tangs which I would not consider the most hardiest fish, but a moorish Idol I would assume should live at least that, probably double that.
Mine did die because of me but the vast majority of them don't live 3 years, most of them under two. That is a miserable record for a fish that size.
Clownfish, tangs, angels, wrasses and gobies to name a few, we know how to get to live long enough to die of old age and in our tanks they should.
There is "almost" no reason for most fish to die in a tank well before their normal lifespan. Of course we have power blackouts and accidents, leaking tanks and cats (well I don't but I know some people do)
I think eventually we will learn the secret to keeping Idols but as of now, we are just killing them prematurely, all of us, me included.

 

[SDguy]

Clownfish, tangs, angels, wrasses and gobies to name a few, we know how to get to live long enough to die of old age and in our tanks they should.

Start throwing butterflies and the like into the mix, and you see my point regarding the statistics

FWIW, most people's tanks die long before the fish die of old age (usually taking the fish with them). It's the truth.

 

[Skynyrd Fish]

Mine is eating 4 different pellets. Big pig. I'm going to boston soon and I'm going to try to collect some sponge. We'll see what happens. Could I dehydrate it? This fish is great. What is the adult size of a wild MI?

 

[Paul B]

most people's tanks die long before the fish die of old age

I think you are correct although I don't know why.

 

[gofor100]

FWIW, most people's tanks die long before the fish die of old age (usually taking the fish with them). It's the truth.

So true... Paul, you are unfortunately in the minority when it comes to "life of a tank". Don't know many people that have had the same tank without breaking it down and/or moving for more than 10 or 15 years, much less 50+ years, which usually means the livestock is given away or sold... life happens sometimes.

I think there are a few things at play as to why the MI is so difficult to keep long-term:

> Finding the right specimen- these fish are simply not great shippers and seem to come in pretty beat up. Although, with the proper acclimation/QT (I used both cupramine and prazipro in my treatment for ALL of my fish) and throwing any and all foods at it, some can be saved. I'd say go with the smaller ones if you can find them, or at least a sub-adult to be safe.
> Providing the right environment- needs room to swim. Mine doesn't seem to mind at all that it only has 5 feet (left to right) to swim, probably because it has almost 3 feet (front to back), and 2 feet (top to bottom) to provide some added room. That, and the fact that I don't have any tangs in my tank that would take up a similar place in the water column.
> Reducing Human Error- all of the stories that I've read where the items above hold true, it seems that a move or electrical issue comes rearing its ugly head that takes down not only the MI but the whole tank with it. I haven't worked out all of the kinks with my tank, but am working on it (i.e., redundancies that will help if something happens while I'm away). Of course, proper acclimation/QT will of course help guard against the fish succumbing to any disease that can take advantage of a reduced immunity caused by added stress (i.e., ich).
> Proper Nutrition: as SDguy had mentioned before, it seems like several people on these boards have kept MIs for a number of years (although not 10+ yet) by feeding them anywhere from only pellets to a mixed variety of frozen seafoods. I personally do all of the above, and since I don't have direct access to sponge that I know of, I purchase two different types of frozen foods that state sponge as the first ingredient. Although, having said that, I'm not sure that sponge is the secret to keeping these guys alive. One the one hand, it seems like it is more of a food of convenience than it is of necessity out in the wild. Not many other fish seem to be feeding on the same stuff (I dove with them everyday for about 2 weeks in Fiji trying to keep up with their every move). On the other hand, as Paul seems to speculate, there could be some "secret" nutrition they derive from the sponge, but what are the chances that Paul B's sponge (taken from his dock) has the same nutritional make-up as the warm-water sponge found on the reefs of the South Pacific (this is an honest question, I'm by no means a biologist, so it'd be interesting to know)?

As for my MI, still doing really well... king of the tank and looking great. I'll see if I can get some more recent pics.

Thanks,

Chad

 

[e55MD]

I just purchased my first MI from LA Diver's Den today. I feel confident that he will be in great condition and eating because I have never experienced anything less from them. My only real concern is shipping stress. I was curious if anyone knew exactly what kinds of sponge these fish eat. Would it be interested in the yellow, orange or red sponges that are commonly sold in the hobbyist trade. I have some of those in my tank and I would be more than happy if he ate them to stay healthy.

 

[geovanii]

I saw it happen... he flipped around quickly, after some food... he was near the MJ1200 MOD PH. Probably the flow from the powerhead combined with the hard 180 degree turn caused it. I also notice mine loved eating the algae in front of the powerhead. This lead to the dorsal ray being bent slightly from the flow blowing it "against the grain". The bend remains, even after transfer to the 240. I think size of tank has a lot to do with this.

I saw mine do the same thing. Lost it's streamer after a sharp turn for food.

 

[Chicago]

please tell me issues and differences between those from hawaii and fiji.

thanks

side note.. safe with sps.. ??

 

[SDguy]

My MI has gone from a tiny, paper thin juvi to a good sized teenager in only 11 months!

Back in Dec of 2011:

And now:
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[Bernie21]

I have one that I recently purchased, a juvi. He looked strong and healthy but wasn't eating, by I was willing to risk buying him because he looked so good. One week later he's eating everything including pellets like a pig. I do however have several sponges in my tank that I keep as natural decorations and natural foods to keep my Reef eating fish from eating corals. My idol picks at the sponges here and there, he seems to like them all. My only questions are:

Should there be any type sponge in particular I should have?
How can you tell a male apart from a female?

 

[Bernie21]

Bump...

"Should there be any type sponge in particular I should have?
How can you tell a male apart from a female? "

 

[pinnatus]

I have had mine for 3 1/2 years, he has never had sponge. It mostly eats pellets. When I get my algae under control I also need to supplement Nori.

 

[Bernie21]

I have had mine for 3 1/2 years, he has never had sponge. It mostly eats pellets. When I get my algae under control I also need to supplement Nori.

I like your Avatar...
Well I do feed pellets and Nori & I have plenty of of hair algae right now :mad2:. I also feed a varied frozen diet 3x a week, but I have 3 different sponges in the tank as well that it picks at from time to time. I just wanted to offer as much variety as possible.

 

[pinnatus]

Sounds like you are supplying a good diet to me. I have had byropsis in my tank, and the Idol liked it. Then got rid of the byropsis and the Idol suffered. In particular, I noticed its pennant stopped growing. So, I began giving Nori, and the Idol went back to normal. I currently have gotten rid of my algae once again, so I need to start adding Nori back into its diet. But no sponge here. I can definitely say that greens are very important to their diet. Best of luck with yours.