The Moorish Idol Thread

[KDodds]

IME, no, they won't "grow out" in a tank that small. My first has doubled in size in less than 5 months (from 2-2½" to 5", maybe a little over). My second is already on the same pace. I'd like to know where you found Idols that small (and I'd like to see pics) because at that size, they're really JUST post larval and will still exhibit some body formations that are not completely "adult" yet. There is likely to be a lot of internal squabbling as they start to mature, and in a 75, there's really no room for retreat. These guys are so fast and agile that any hiding spot is not really going to be a good one in a tank that small. I wish you luck, I really do, but know from the onset that you're pretty much doing things as wrong as you can and that luck will be playing a big role in any success that you have. Just my 2¢.

 

[Paul B]

Kieron is correct. Also, although NLS may be an ideal food for African Ciclids that in no way will help you with a fish that eats predominately South Pacific sponge every day. I also think that it may not be just food that keeps us from keeping Idols from their normal lifespan. My tank is overcrowded, it doesen't have an awesome filter and it is too small but my Idol is over three years old. I could be just lucky but it could also be that my tank is 36 years old. For some reason that I don't know yet, fish in my tank never get sick and they just about all live their normal lifespan of over ten years unless of an accident. Maybe something happens in a very old tank that allows this to happen but whatever it is, in the past, I diden't have a lot of luck keeping Idols past two years.
Of course I have more experience now and if I had more time and space I am sure I could raise the things. That would be a lot of space like an outdoor pool in Tahiti, in case anyone wants to donate that to me. :lol:
:dance:
Paul

 

[TitoTee]

wow - I guess I came across as a real a-------e fill in the blanks. well sorry to thread on such fragile ground. However, I beleive I'll do quite well growing out 4 MI in 75 Gs for now. Tank is well aged and maintains sparkling water. Those that live in it now will be moved and it will actually become the exclusive home for these guys. Also, read up on NLS before pulling that trigger big guy - NLS is made for Marines as well. I just mention the Africans as a point of reference. I was wrong for stating that I would feed NLS only. I did not mean that at all. I will feed various other fare - Mysis, Spirulina yada yada ya. Im no rookie, nor do I feel I need to publish my credentials - that be that. Also, folks please please understand - you are all killers of these wonderful creatures as well since many of you have fully admitted to it. So why shouldn't I join the list.

Edit: oh, by the way - the numbers at the bottom of my profile - I just chose those cause they look inocent enough. You know the 75g 5yr thing. LOL

 

[Paul B]

TitoTee, I diden't say or mean to imply that you came across an an a-----e. I am sure you are an accomplished aquarist. You may be able to put 4 Idols in a 75, I know you can. You can put 12 of them in there. The problem is that no one that I know of has kept even one for ten years. Although I am far from being the God of moorish Idols I have been doing this over fifty years and I have some experience with Idols. Not just keeping them but also diving with them. I would say that with just about any other fish if you feed it well and learn about it's spicific habits you can keep them for many years, Idols are proving to be different. There is something about them that prevents them from living out their normal lifespan. I don't think it is just food. It may be the need to live with a mated pair, or the need of natural sunlight or swimming space, I don't know. All I ever saw them eat in the sea is a lime green sponge that I can't get in New York so I collect local sponge. Mysis, spirolina and a lot of ingredients in NLS are far from natural moorish Idol food. These are no doubt great foods and I feed them to my fish, but there also must be something in a certain south Pacific sponge that Idols need. As I said I feed my Idol sponge every day but he is just about the only fish that likes it. It may have something that they need that is not needed by other fish. If you look at the mouth of an Idol you can see that their jaws are much different from other fish, they are very weak and their teeth are very small. They are made to eat a very soft food. Fish are built to eat a certain thing and although mine eats bananas, avacado and probably cardboard, it will not live for many years on thise things.
The one I have now is the first one I tried this sponge on and so far he seems healthy.
As I said I mean no disrespect and I really hope your 4 Idols live a long time in your 75 gallon tank.

By the way, the numbers at the bottom of my profile are there because "it is what it is"
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[TitoTee]

That last part spoken like a true NYker Paul. LOL
The reason I decided to post in this thread is because I want to know how many people are feeding NLS to their MIs I know that the creator of the thread does and even said that he know feeds NLS exclusively. Pablo Tepoot NLS swears by his product. Heck, his Canadian distributor even has an MI on their home page, don’t believe me â€"œ take a look for yourself. The reason I’m doing what I’m doing is because I want to see if they will fare well with NLS feeding as their main staple diet â€"œ supplanted with other fare as well of course. I figured 4 MI juvies in my 75 would do well. Nice small school, not too much work on the bio. My tank is nicely over filtrated â€"œ water sparkles almost drinkable. It’s nicely aged with minimal aquascaping. I don’t have a reef just some LRs that create gorges and crevices leaving ample room to swim around in. I want a small school cause most people just keep one â€"œ I want to see what happens in a small family. Maybe they will be happier â€"œ who knows. Of course they will go to larger quarters when they grow larger but for now I want to micro-manage their feeding and habitat â€"œ study them better. My main intent is to see if NLS will hold up to its claim.

 

[KDodds]

Tito, you should "not join the list" because there are those that have gone before you that you could and should probably learn from. That's not hypocrisy, not at all. I am where I am today because I did not repeat the mistakes others have made.

Don't fall for all of the NLS hype, either. My smaller MI won't touch the stuff, but he loves ON flakes.

Believe what you will about 4 MIs in a 75... just please be sure to post back regularly (and honestly) on how they're doing.

You can take the chip off now, I'm really not trying to knock it off, just breathing a little reality into your world.

 

[TitoTee]

KDodds
Sure no problem. I'll just be monitoring though - wont really contribute much. But, I felt like - if I'm going to spend two hours reading this stuff from page 1 (which I did) I'm going to have something to say - and I did. You problably wont hear from me much after this. Thanks for the attention though.

 

[KDodds]

That's sad.

Your input, whether successful or not so successful, is definitely valuable. As guys that have gone before me like Tullock, Fenner, Sprung, Delbeek, etc., I valued their opinions and experiences within the hobby. Because of their experiences and recommendations, I tailored my own decisions in some things differently than I would have otherwise, especially where there opinions were strong. Carry on the torch, you know?

 

[TitoTee]

KDodds

I don't beleive that my input here will do any good. I'm sure my experience will be just about the same as others. If I find a significant amount of data to contribute from my program I will though. I could put 4 MIs in a 180g but there would be other fish there and that would kill my whole purpose of wanting to micro manage them. Months from now - if things go well - I will post info about what I'm doing. Im sure Pablo will love that - is he going to pay me - he doesnt even know me LOL

 

[Paul B]

Besides trying to feed Idols what we think they need I think it is important to also feed them a few times a day. Most fish can get by with a few feedings a week and that is all I used to feed my fish but with the addition of the moorish Idol and copperband butterfly
I feel that I must fed these fish at least three times a day. This is really screwing up my water but that is the price you pay if you are trying to experiment with moorish Idols. I think mine is still alive for two reasons one being the sponge and the other is the dish I feed him out of. As I said at the beginning of this thread, I taught him to eat pellets from a dish that has a tube up to the surface with a funnel on top. There is an automatic feeder that puts pellets into the funnel twice a day. The Idol knows this and checks out the dish on every pass around the tank. He eats all of the pellets and none of them are lost. I am looking for a feeder that will feed him one or two pellets every couple of hours as this is the way all fish eat. A very little at a time not a big meal once and no food for the rest of the day. Seahorses are another fish that that should eat a few times a day.
I will be going to Sicily on a trip soon and I would like at least three feedings to be automatic. I am working on a way to feed frozen food and sponge semi automatically for a couple of weeks while I am gone.
Paul

 

[KDodds]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=8011823#post8011823 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Paul B
Besides trying to feed Idols what we think they need I think it is important to also feed them a few times a day.

:thumbsup:

 

[TitoTee]

Hey Paul - right on! You hit it on the bullseye. That's why I want to put them in a 75 and micro manage. To make sure they are eating and so that I can control water quality. Now you're talking baby! Hey, Enjoy la Sicily eh!

 

[italia987]

Hey everyone.. Kdodds and paul B I admire the experience you both have and once and a while i return to this thread to get some new imput from you guys. I am 22 yrs old and so far had two Idols. THis fish is my passion I lost one due to a 5 day blackout we had in NY but my other one is doing ok. Are any of you from NY? is so you may know my uncle AL he is the president of Brooklynne aQuarium society down by coney island. Anyway My work with the IDOL so far has been stricly leasurely due to me having many species of fish i cant dedicate allot of my time to the idol. I do plan on having a handfull of Idols and doing some case studies on The best way the diet can be replicated and there life in the aquarium can be as close to there natural life in the wild.(i am not unrealistic,I know we can never match there natural diet, schooling habbits and breeding) But i think if we can attain the longest possible life span for these fish in an aquarium,even if it is 4 to 6 years its worth it. Its obvious idols are not going to be stop being sold. It really bothers me to see these fish being massacered in peoples tanks that have little knowledge of them. OK i am rambling on... TO make a long story short i am having a website made for my aquarium maintenance Company. One page of the site will be dedicated to some tips people can do to keep healthier fish. What i would like to do is make one section for just the Idol but this will be a basic section a composition of our works till now. then aftet the winter and i get to do the research i plan to do i can make a website Stricly for the IDOl, kind of like a reference showing statistics on how diffrent food, currents, lighting and tank mates affect the idol. Tell me what u guys think? thanx

 

[italia987]

I have much much more to say But first i want to get some feed back from you guys.

 

[Paul B]

Antonio (I guess you are an Irish Fellow :lol: ) I may know your Uncle Al but I can't say from his first name. I have spent a lot of time at the Coney Island Aquarium or NY aquarium. As a matter of fact I was born right near there in Coney Island. (I am also Italian)
As for the site on Moorish Idols I have mixed feelings. I have been studying, keeping and diving with them for many years and I know very little. I know their habits and food in the wild but since they come from such far away places (from me anyway) I can't swim with them as much as I would like to get a better understanding of their needs.
Also as I said many times, it may not be food as their limiting factor as many people feel it is. These fish are always very stressed, they just do not like captive life, (neither would I)
We as aquarists can only keep a very small fraction of the fish in the sea in tanks. Most sport and food fish are unadaptable for tank life. A bluefish for example would not live more than a few minutes in a tank, I doubt a baby swordfish would live long either.
Moorish Idols are in a class by themselves. They are in between angels and butterflies and they are the only member of the class. (Zanclus cornutus).
Sorry for the rambling, as for your Idea, Knowledge is "usually" a good thing, if you can get some valuable information from some informed sourses. Unfortunately, in the case of Idols, almost no one has kept one long enough to get the thing to die from old age. I have one for about three years which would make me an expert, right? Not even close. You will find a multitude of people, some right here, that will swear they have the secret because they have one that is eating brine shrimp for a couple of weeks.
Just try and be careful where you get your information from. Your uncle at the New York Aquarium may be helpful.
I knew some people there and they had no Idea what to do with an Idol.
Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing it.
Paul

 

[KDodds]

Born and bred in Bushwick, I live "upstate" now. No, I don't know Al, sorry. My feelings on Idols remain mixed. As you say, Antonio, it's blatantly obvious that, without an outright ban, Idols will continue to be sold. However, I also agree with Paul, any "recipe for success" is no such thing at all. Not with Idols, and not with many delicate fish. For the same reasons you state, tho, I keep them, to try to learn more about them and to try to learn how to care for them in captivity, so that others might have a better chance, or at least an information base to turn to. Of course, I'm always careful to state that I do NOT condone their keeping or being kept by most aquarists. I'm not the type of person who really cares whether someone think that's hypocritical or not. In fact, I'd care even less about their opinion because chances are that type of person is one who is not meeting the standards I believe are necessary for even a reasonable chance of success and they're insistent upon killing the fish anyway.

I agree with Paul as well that there's more to Idols than feeding. I don't think feeding is a problem, or some mysterious lack of some obscure chemical found only in sponges. Why? Because Idols are so widespread. It would stand to reason that identical sponge species (or those closely related) would need to be present at all of the sites where Idols are found. I really, seriously, doubt this is the case. As well, my experiences are such that they're not really that picky. They do have favorite foods, yes, on an INDIVIDUAL basis, but they'll eat a bit of almost everything. Like Paul, I believe transport is probably one of the main concerns, as well as ultimate housing. I really, really, really don't think 6' tanks are large enough for them, maybe if they're also 3' back, maybe.

 

[TitoTee]

Ok folks I'm back for a final say. I have decided not to put MIs in any of my tanks. I don't want to buy a fish that I am going to kill plus waste my money, regardless of how long or short it takes to accomplish the kill. When I was at the Tampa aquarium, they had a nice display of reeef fish, but there was no Idol to be found. I bet it is like that in many public aquariums and its like that for a reason. Hey, folks, maybe you should stop buying these fish - seems like we know what the outcome is going to be - so why keep trying to rationalize it. Peace.

 

[KDodds]

The last one I was at in New Jersey had a couple the last time I was there. Actually, their reef displays were quite embarassing and the Idols looked like standard LFS fare, emaciated and, in my estimation, on their way out. They were in the big, way overstocked, columnar aquarium. Funny, every fish in it looked "new", if you know what I mean. Young adult fish, still in full reef color despite being "skinny", etc. Their "reefs" were no better, including the anemone/pink skunk display that had several anemones actually floating around in it. The hard corals and soft corals were mere frags, etc. IOW, there are a lot of private keepers that know a lot more and can do a lot more with a lot less resources than teams of experts at some public aquaria.

If you do it right, your chances of success are probably better than what is geberally reported. Unfortunately, most people do not "do it right". Of course, this includes picking specimens that are already feeding and not emaciated, although "skinny" specimens are probably mostly unavoidable. If you choose to call proving that they can be tanked "rationalizing", with the implication that it's rationalizing an "evil", hey, you're entitled to your opinion. Of course, the guys who tanked the Great White were probably "rationalizing" as well, and let's not forget the Whale Shark in Japan.

 

[Paul B]

Kieron and I seem to agree on everything when it comes to moorish Idols. Although mine is in a 6' long tank I know that it is woefully undersized. My Idol has some ripped fins, no doubt from trying to maneuver around rocks and in my tank, bottles and beer cans. They are not really fish that hide like a lot of reef fish. In the sea they had no fear of me and just swam off when I approached. I could get very close though. They swim around coral reefs rather than go through them like hippo tangs do, staying a short distance from the rock. They are always on the move and take long swims looking for food even though they seem to know exactly where to look. I think thats why they are always stressed in a small tank. They don't like all that turning around and they like to swim off in a straight line when threatened rather than hide. They must have collected a lot of them recently. The LFSs here in NY all have them. One has them for $110.00 and one has them for $29.00. None of them will last long as they are as Kieron said "on their way out"
Antonio, I grew up in Queens and now live one mile outside Queens in New Hyde Park.
Have a great day.
Paul

 

[KDodds]

Really, Paul? Any of them look even remotely good? Or feeding? It's sad really, when they come in "en masse". You just know they're being held in middle-men's tanks for days to weeks, not getting anything proper to eat, crammed together, etc., when they poke up in volume like that. It's the exact wrong way to treat them, kind of like shipping Xenia unmounted at the bottom of a plastic bag. More often then not, by the time it gets to you, it's beyond saving. My LFS gets them in sparingly, here and there throughout the year. Before the one I have had for 5 months now, there was a fairly long dry spell. The second that's still with me is in about a month now. In that time, they've gotten only 2 others, neither one acceptable to me.

Here's a little tip. Idols have a thin black line right before the caudal peduncle. This line is NOT present in post larval juveniles and only very faint in juveniles and sub-adults, from my observations. Being that the younger you get them the better they seem to fair, this might be one of the markers to look for. Of course, the primary thing to look for is IS IT EATING.

And, of course, ideally you should have a huge tank.