the pump wars continue

[SkullV]

It looks like the retrofit kit to provide the correct GPH rating will now cost even existing customers $30.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19172763&postcount=13

Pretty surprised that they are taking this route and still not changing any of the packaging or advertising materials that they have for the current pumps.

 

[badazztealcobra]

800 GPH for $30 isnt too bad really. Theyre also doing what I expected and opening things up with more options when ordering with different voltages, and also flow patterns... Should be interesting.

Also,

We are working on restating the flow with velocity in future reprints of the manuals and packaging, which is the way it should be stated, we will keep the gph statement with the disclaimer "for comparative purposes only" and add a chart that shows the velocity of the flow in a map of flow pattern and explains what coral types need what velocity.

So Im not sure where you're getting that theyre not changing their advertising or packing ???

 

[SkullV]

I saw that, and that's great (depending on what the "disclaimer" actually says), but now that they are dong nothing at all to fix the current pumps for free, it would make sense to recall everything on the shelves to wait for corrected packaging right?

Before everyone was happy because they were going to fix the problem for free, now they make this video and Tunze supporters are happy with the eventual possibility of a packaging change?

Nothing against the pumps. They work fine, but as a company it seems kind of dishonest.

 

[badazztealcobra]

I'm sure some of the stock will get returned to them or it will be noted that this pricing is for the old models, and for an additional $30 you can get the upgraded model or the upgrade kit.

People expected them to fix it for free, I dont think Tunze ever said it would be free and I believe Roger even said it would be a minimal charge. To run all those parts isn't too cheap since the mold is for both parts of the pumps, not just a front grille. 800 GPH increase for $30 isnt too bad IMO.

Not sure what else you would like to have them do or say. The test equipment used in the original test picks up turbulence around the pumps and adds it into the GPH rating, it's been stated a few times and by some people who use the equipment for their professions in the thread on the lighting forums.

Until someone sets up a tow tank to test all these powerheads there's no real point to these tests (either the one done by Ecotech or the dye and bubble one from Tunze honestly).

 

[SkullV]

Not sure what else you would like to have them do or say. The test equipment used in the original test picks up turbulence around the pumps and adds it into the GPH rating, it's been stated a few times and by some people who use the equipment for their professions in the thread on the lighting forums.

None of those experts could (none even responded) explain why Tunze was the ONLY laminar flow powerhead (Koralia, Aqueon, Coralife, etc.) that drastically underperformed though. I clearly prefer a Vortech to a Tunze, even though like I said there is nothing wrong with a Tunze, but that is an item that I would love to see some more information about. Even if it just for the sake of knowledge.

 

[badazztealcobra]

Who really knows. You'll have conspiracy theorists say it was because the test was performed by Ecotech, the people from Tunze only wanted to compare theirs to the Vortechs, and my answer would lie in the middle.

While the other pumps are more laminar than say a Vortech, they still create more turbulence based off their grille designs. Take a look at the Koralia for instance:

The front grille is definitely more open than a Tunze. Likely not as open as a Vortech. So with the fron being this open compared to a Tunze you're still going to get more turbulence around the pump than a Tunze. As it has been stated by a few people, that test equipment will pick up turbulence and add it as GPH.

If you look at a Tunze front grille it's alot more focused of an output:

All the water being pushed from the prop hits the solid front grille and is ejected from the output opening only. There's even a tunnel that is built inside the covers that many people dremel out to get even more GPH from their pumps.... Now is it more GPH that is added by dremeling or is it more turbulence coming from the front grille which is adding skewing the GPH number is the question.

So with this more focused flow there's no turbulence to really skew the GPH numbers.

I'm biased towards Tunze like you are with Vortech. I've had a few issues that Roger has helped me with that will have me going with Tunze until they go out of business. To me though, the front grille has a lot more to do with it than people were thinking.

 

[poidog81]

Where is this ecotech test? I thought the test was done independently by Dr. Sanjay.

 

[badazztealcobra]

Where is this ecotech test? I thought the test was done independently by Dr. Sanjay.

The first test was funded/put together/whatever by Ecotech and performed by an Ecotest intern while being supervised by Sanjay.....

While I'm not one of those conspiracy people, it was technically an Ecotest test....

I'm still thinking the grille designs have alot more to do with it than most people think. Even though people say anything but a Vortech is a laminar pump the output and the tunnel the prop is in on a Tunze has to come into play....

I would've loved to have seen a dremeled out Tunze front grille added to the test to see what happened.....


*edit straight from the first article*
Acknowledgment
We would like to thank EcoTech Marine for providing the large aquarium and renting the equipment needed for the study. The work was performed under the technical guidance and consultation with Bill Straka and Sanjay Joshi of Penn State University. The data was collected by Mike Sandford during his summer internship at EcoTech Marine.

 

[poidog81]

I want to be an ecotech intern :sad1:

 

[nixer]

800 GPH for $30 isnt too bad really. Theyre also doing what I expected and opening things up with more options when ordering with different voltages, and also flow patterns... Should be interesting.

Also,


So Im not sure where you're getting that theyre not changing their advertising or packing ???

800 GPH for 30$
thats dumb you were already sold that GPH. that just shoots tunze in the foot even more. its clear cut false advertisement

 

[badazztealcobra]

Their calculations were wrong from their testing.... It's not like they just put random numbers on the box. If it bugs you that much start a lawsuit, for me I'd say for $30 I'd take the increase in flow and pattern...

To each their own I suppose.

 

[SkullV]

Their calculations were wrong from their lack of testing.... It's not like they just put random numbers on the box. If it bugs you that much start a lawsuit, for me I'd say for $30 I'd take the increase in flow and pattern...

To each their own I suppose.

Fixed that for you, math is not testing. I agree though, to each their own. It's never really been a question of whether or not the pumps work, we know they work, people have been using them for years. Its an issue of business ethics and company honesty.

 

[Jeff]

Well, I've used them both and prefer EcoTech's products. I am a huge fan of Tunze and have used their streams and skimmers for years but after getting my first MP40 I'll never look back. No heat into the water, no cords, controllable random flow and the incredible "cool" factor just win out for me.

 

[sonict72]

Well, I've used them both and prefer EcoTech's products. I am a huge fan of Tunze and have used their streams and skimmers for years but after getting my first MP40 I'll never look back. No heat into the water, no cords, controllable random flow and the incredible "cool" factor just win out for me.

I don't own either but Vortech definitely has the cool factor. But the price...Geez...

 

[saleenpwr88]

I think it's kind of a joke that Tunze is charging for this "upgrade". If they sold pumps at a certain GPH and found out it wasn't accurate they should be the ones to absorb that cost.

 

[badazztealcobra]

I've never heard once that someone was ditching their Tunzes because they added too much heat to the tank, I know i've never noticed a temp difference in my tank from running Tunzes. I know I use them because i like not hearing them run and I like that my tanks all the way against my wall and I can still aim where needed. With the Vortech I would need to be a few inches away from the wall for the to fit on the back pane.

Another issue is also that the testing equipment is far from perfect since things like turbulence can affect the readings. So they were off according to this test method. They were off on their calculations and that's all there is to say about it really. Would it be nicer if the upgrades were free? Of course, but they obviously needed to charge to make this happen for people.

What if Tunze sets up a tow tank or something that takes turbulence out of the equation and the Vortech are down on GPH, will everyone be up in arms saying Ecotech is scamming people? The problem is these are just hobby pumps and there's just not standardized testing for them. They can always just change things around to make their product look like the winner.

Just my .02 of course

 

[Tank2379]

I think we all have to realize that companies like Tunze,Ecotech,Hydor, etc... All what to sell there products with the label on them with GPH at a great price. Some do well than others but in all reality, GPH is not always going to be accurate especially an accurate number or close to.

It's like testing our water parameteres with Salifert,API,Hanna checker it's never going to be the same. But we buy them because it's needed. How do we even know if these test kits are right or accurate? Who test the testers that test these test kits???? People like Tunze, some rather have Ecotech and and some prefer Hydor. If Tunze is the company that stands by there product 110% then I am sure it will get fixed to the correct GPH that was recommend on the box. Nothing is Free in this world and in this economy it is what it is, and parts are not free either. Companies will no longer eat cost because the markets are too extreme and everyone wants everything for Free.. but this is just my .02

 

[saleenpwr88]

But people buy Tunze for their reputation. If this was some chinese knockoff no one would care, it would probably be expected. If they want to keep their reputation then they will fix it at their cost IMO...but at this point the damage is probably already done anyway.

 

[nixer]

I think we all have to realize that companies like Tunze,Ecotech,Hydor, etc... All what to sell there products with the label on them with GPH at a great price. Some do well than others but in all reality, GPH is not always going to be accurate especially an accurate number or close to.

It's like testing our water parameteres with Salifert,API,Hanna checker it's never going to be the same. But we buy them because it's needed. How do we even know if these test kits are right or accurate? Who test the testers that test these test kits???? People like Tunze, some rather have Ecotech and and some prefer Hydor. If Tunze is the company that stands by there product 110% then I am sure it will get fixed to the correct GPH that was recommend on the box. Nothing is Free in this world and in this economy it is what it is, and parts are not free either. Companies will no longer eat cost because the markets are too extreme and everyone wants everything for Free.. but this is just my .02

like i said you were charged for that extra 800 gph! 800 gph is hardly a botch in measurements! if they stood behind their product 110% then it wouldnt be an issue, but charging to fix their oversight is just plain not standing behind their product period!

 

[badazztealcobra]

They're down 800 GPH when tested with this method of testing. That is the point, with no standard of testing these pumps who's to say which method is correct ?!?!?

What if Tunze took the prop tester and put it a mm away from their prop and got the flow numbers where they were listed in their manual, then people would say "well that's right at the prop", or it should've been tested from a foot away, etc.

When they tested them using their bag method and then used math to figure out the other ratings they got their GPH numbers. They just arent the same as the test that was done for AA.

What if Tunze did their bag test on a vortech and it only came out to be 1,000 GPH ??? Then we would be in the same boat. According to the bag test the Vortech was down in GPH so redesign the pump and send out parts for free.

I've personally never heard one person complain about the output of their Tunze's until this test was finished. I feel bad for the poor coral in front of a 6305 when the output is doubled or whatever it'll end up being. :lol2: