The Tank that REEF CENTRAL Built - 450 gal display, 800 gal volume

[techreef]

Very good starter description of designing the electrical system for an aquarium system and fish room. ReefKing, I'm glad you avoided what could have been an absolute catastrophe, and you and your family are all safe. Thank you also for posting this mistake, instead of not sharing, because like it was stated above, this is truly one of the huge potential risks of the systems we all set up, and Joe's point about moving tanks and being tired at the end when we're just rushing to get the tank running again is right on the money. Be careful everyone.

 

[Made2Rock]

When it comes to extension cords those cheap lamp extension cords you use around the house are only 16 gauge and I think may only be rated for around 8 amps. So you will quickly overload them.

Keeping track of the wattage that is on a line was also talked about. A lot of the time you can find out how many watts a light is but unless you know the formula that will not tell you how many 400 watt lights you can put on a 15A circuit. The formula is

Power in watts = Voltage x Current

So if you have 120 volt and the light is using 1 amp you will have 120 watts

120 watts = 120 volts x 1 amp

The problem is not to many of us have a way of measuring the current so it you flip it around you'll get

Current = Wattage / Voltage

So your 400 watt light works out to

3.33 amps = 400 watts / 120 volts

Again it is best not to push a circuit to the max.

Joe

 

[SPotter]

When it comes to extension cords those cheap lamp extension cords you use around the house are only 16 gauge and I think may only be rated for around 8 amps. So you will quickly overload them.

Keeping track of the wattage that is on a line was also talked about. A lot of the time you can find out how many watts a light is but unless you know the formula that will not tell you how many 400 watt lights you can put on a 15A circuit. The formula is

Power in watts = Voltage x Current

So if you have 120 volt and the light is using 1 amp you will have 120 watts

120 watts = 120 volts x 1 amp

The problem is not to many of us have a way of measuring the current so it you flip it around you'll get

Current = Wattage / Voltage

So your 400 watt light works out to

3.33 amps = 400 watts / 120 volts

Again it is best not to push a circuit to the max.

Joe

Joe this is perfect! I have been looking around the internet for that information today so I can plug it into my excel spread sheet. I think things like this simple formula should be a sticky thread on here somewhere.

 

[Made2Rock]

There is another formula for those that want to know more.

Heat comes from current moving thru resistance. Thinking of it like rubbing your hands together. The more resistance the faster they warm up. Well the same is true with wires. This resistance can be measured and it comes in units called Ohms. For copper wire a 12 gauge wire has a resistance of 1.588, 14 gauge wire has a resistance of 2.525 and 16 gauge has a resistance of 4.016 per 1,000 feet. If you push the same amount of current thru these wires the 16 gauge wire has the most resistance and will become the hottest. The 12 gauge will be the coolest. The reason for this is the lower resistance in the 12 gauge wire.

So what happened here was one more thing was added, then another and another. The next thing you know the wire gets hotter and hotter. Another point here is the breaker also gets hotter and it will trip.

Hopefully this helps everyone to understand where the heat is coming from and how all the pieces come together.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

To add to this, older breakers can sometimes fail in the ON position - meaning they won't trip when they're supposed to. Or, they'll trip but you can't reset them, and can't find replacements. But we're talking some really old breakers here. Frank Adams brand is the first to come to mind. That's the one I replaced on the first house I bought (notorious for faulty breakers). Kinney is a pretty old brand too. You would have to have a pretty old house for this to be of concern.

Then there is the issue of aluminum wiring (1970s era construction). Don't get me started. If you had this flagged on your home inspection report it is worth looking into, otherwise forget I mentioned it.

 

[theReefKing]

Hello Everyone.
First, thank you for the information and knowledge. I appreciate every bit of it. I know I did a stupid thing and I am very grateful that the consequenses were not more severe.

I have replaced the 15A breaker back where it belongs, and still have nothing plugged into the outlet pictured above.

So the house is wired weird, and it turns out that this outlet is the only outlet in the house which is also connected to the main AC unit. So when I opened the breaker to this outlet I also secured the AC unit to the top two floors of the house. I didn't discover this until the family had slept in an 85 degree house and the HVAC guy was here. The breaker pannel is not labeled to show this as the case, but that is how things are none the less.

I have since shut the breaker to the outlet and have been monitoring the outlet and the wall. Since there is now no load on the bad outlet I am assuming there will be no heat?
I traced a black line around the bubbled paint and have been going down to check and make sure that there is no further acrid odor, any changes to the bubbling, or any heat. There has been none.

Tomorrow my brother-in-law who is a contractor/general handy man and my sister are going to come over and we will cut the power again, pull some drywall off and see what the damage is. I will get some pictures to show you guys how close an escape I actually had.

 

[theReefKing]

Bud and M2R, I really appreciate you both taking the time to share your knowledge with me. I can assure you I will not make the same mistake again.

If one good thing came out of this, it is that the $4000 the price of the house went up to accomodate for the additions we made for the systen in the new house is feeling like it was worth EVERY PENNY!

 

[theReefKing]

If you have the ability in the new house (i.e. you're making a fish room) I would have a dedicated panel, no question. Then you can also have an outlet ran outside for a generator to plug in to, and isolate the fish room (by throwing the sub-breaker in the main panel) and put it on the generator in the case of a long term outage. Make the panel plenty big with room for many additional breakers. There are never too many breakers :spin3:

I would also have a SPD (Surge Protection Device) on both the main panel and the sub-panel. Costs you a bit more but in the big picture, it could save your entire system one day. Food for thought!

We will have a completely separate electrical system for all the aquarium equipment and fish room.

I will ask the electrician about the SPD. We already talking about an auto transfer switch for the generator.

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I have since shut the breaker to the outlet and have been monitoring the outlet and the wall. Since there is now no load on the bad outlet I am assuming there will be no heat?
I traced a black line around the bubbled paint and have been going down to check and make sure that there is no further acrid odor, any changes to the bubbling, or any heat. There has been none.

Tomorrow my brother-in-law who is a contractor/general handy man and my sister are going to come over and we will cut the power again, pull some drywall off and see what the damage is. I will get some pictures to show you guys how close an escape I actually had.

You are correct in that no current - no heat, as long as this outlet is not in between your AC unit and the panel, but you don't know until you open up the wall.

However, you still have live wires, and since you potentially have damage to the conductors (wires) I would not take any chances. Turn off the breaker and cut the drywall away and examine the wires. If the sheathing has melted away from the wires, and the wires are still capable of providing current, if they touch each other they can create an intermittent short (spark) and this can still cause a fire. In an instance such as this where you have 2 bare wires touching, it would be very low resistance which would result in a high current and that should trip the breaker quickly, but why take the chance.

I would cut away the drywall now and make sure the AC unit is not downstream. You will eventually need to replace the entire circuit anyways.

 

[owenspackman]

Just spent all night setting up the Transition tank.

Broke down the 180 and the 110. Which was sad cause they have been in the family for a while. But they both sold this week, and are getting picked up on Saturday.

The transition tank looks incredible, and I can't wait to show you guys the results of Dana's efforts. But right now I am crawling into bed after spending the last 30 hrs tanking.

its going to be weird without seeing these tanks at your place!

 

[owenspackman]

I need that birdsnest Bill!!

 

[theReefKing]

You are correct in that no current - no heat, as long as this outlet is not in between your AC unit and the panel, but you don't know until you open up the wall.

However, you still have live wires, and since you potentially have damage to the conductors (wires) I would not take any chances. Turn off the breaker and cut the drywall away and examine the wires. If the sheathing has melted away from the wires, and the wires are still capable of providing current, if they touch each other they can create an intermittent short (spark) and this can still cause a fire. In an instance such as this where you have 2 bare wires touching, it would be very low resistance which would result in a high current and that should trip the breaker quickly, but why take the chance.

I would cut away the drywall now and make sure the AC unit is not downstream. You will eventually need to replace the entire circuit anyways.

Didn't get behind the drywall yet, but now the the house is cooled down I did open the breaker for the night so that it would not be live while I was not checking on it and the family is asleep.

Tomorrow the drywall comes down.

 

[theReefKing]

I need that birdsnest Bill!!

Come on over! Plenty to share!
:beer::beer::beer::beer::beer:

 

[Made2Rock]

Glad to hear that the drywall is coming down today and you will be checking the wiring. Floyd is 100% on melting insulation. There is the chance that could have happened and the problem could still be there. Glad to hear you pulled the breaker before calling it a night.

Trust me, you are not the only one to ever do this. I am the king of a rat's next every xmas with the outside lights. In fact there is a 5 second period in my light show that draws over 125 amps and the house only has a 20 amp feed. You can hear the breaker box hum during it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNn5cd7R-dE&list=TLcXZxEtvonqY

Joe

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

Joe, I envy you, and the vast amount of spare time you have.

 

[SPotter]

Glad to hear that the drywall is coming down today and you will be checking the wiring. Floyd is 100% on melting insulation. There is the chance that could have happened and the problem could still be there. Glad to hear you pulled the breaker before calling it a night.

Trust me, you are not the only one to ever do this. I am the king of a rat's next every xmas with the outside lights. In fact there is a 5 second period in my light show that draws over 125 amps and the house only has a 20 amp feed. You can hear the breaker box hum during it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNn5cd7R-dE&list=TLcXZxEtvonqY

Joe

Joe....I think I see a light bulb that is out :lol:

 

[theReefKing]

looking good

Thanks for following along Kyle! Any and all input is appreciated and valued.

 

[theReefKing]

My sister and brother-in-law came over for diner and he helped me look into the electrical issue. i had not done a good job diagnosing the issue. i am a little embarrassed to share the following, but here it is out on the table.

We pulled out the outlet tonight, to see what we had on our hands and the first thing we discovered was that the outlet was fried. The outlet was clearly the weak link as it was fried. But as soon as my brother removed the outlet 6 of the tanks in the room went out, and current was trying to arc across the open wires!

I have had the incorrect breaker open this entire time! And my brothers volt meter was broken because he had tested the line before we started working and got zero.

Once we found the right breaker (which was labeled microwave and master bedroom) we got a little deeper into the trouble spot.

The interesting thing here is that the plug in question WAS ALREADY on a 20A breaker and the wire was 12/2! We exposed as much of the wore as we could to inspect it but there is no sign of any damage or melted insulation.

My brother feels that the issue was due to the bad combination of a massive electrical load on that one plug AND water spatter hitting the outlet.

He felt there was no need to remove any drywall, and the crispy outlet has been removed.
I will be heading to lowes tomorrow and getting a new outlet to replace the one I fried.

Only have to keep this place from burning down for 7 more weeks.

 

[theReefKing]

Just as a heads up for those following along, we are going to start selling off corals so that we can start breaking down tanks in preparation for the move. I will post the inventory and for sale list here first so you guys can all get first dibs. (Am I allowed to do that? Or do I have to only make things available in the for sale thread)

 

[thartsockpg]

You could make a new thread and post a link here