The ultimate angelfish gift... and the Centropyge shepardi that aren't!

[Ninong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15668453#post15668453 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
I was just thinking this the other day, I forgot what dictated the ending of the species name. I was specifically thinking about interruptus/interrupta... but you do see a lot of variation in centropyge, I guess because its not a common latin ending (no ambiguity on the gender of pomacanthus for example).

Interruptus is from the Latin prefix inter (between) and the Latin verb rumpere to break. So the Latin verb interrumpere would mean to break apart. Interruptus is Latin-derived and it is descriptive; therefore, the former Centropyge interruptus should now be Centropyge interrupta because everyone has agreed that the Greek word Centropyge (ending in gamma epsilon) is feminine.

 

[Ninong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15668453#post15668453 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
... but you do see a lot of variation in centropyge, I guess because its not a common latin ending (no ambiguity on the gender of pomacanthus for example).

Both Centropyge and Pomacanthus are Greek, not Latin. Centropyge is feminine, Pomacanthus is masculine. You might be able to say that Pomacanthus is a Latinized version of the Greek ending (-kanthos).

 

[Luiz Rocha]

You are correct again Ninong, substantive names should remain as they are. The question here really is about the loriculus name, is it a substantive or adjective? I don't have the original publication to tell you for sure, but I know someone who does, Bill Eschmeyer. Bill does a pretty good job in keeping the Catalog of Fishes updated with the latest nomenclatural information and he uses loricula there, that's why I used loricula:

http://research.calacademy.org/research/ichthyology/Catalog/fishcatmain.asp

The catalog is a much more reliable source for names than fishbase is. Also, they didn't just changed everything as some of the species (like aurantonotus) are still left with the "us" ending.

I will try to obtain a copy of the original description of loriculus and will let you let you know what I find out about its original meaning.

 

[Ninong]

Luiz,

I added a late P.S. to my previous post as follows:

"P.S. -- I hate to add to the confusion but I can translate Loriculus from the Latin as little breast plate. I think that may be how the parrot genus Loriculus got its name but those German guys are convinced that Loriculus is substantive and not descriptive. I'm just unclear how they determined that."

Obviously all of the descriptive species names in the genus Centropyge that were previously masculine should have been changed to feminine. Some of those species names are Greek (example: acanthops, argi, aurantonotus, narcosis). I have never taken Greek (just four years of high school Latin nearly 50 years ago) so I can't tell you for sure whether those words are already feminine or not. I believe all Greek nouns ending in -a are first declension feminine, same as first declension Latin nouns; but I believe some Greek nouns of the second and third declensions have the same ending for both the masculine and the feminine. (???)

I doubt that they overlooked those words. At least I hope not. If we have any classical Greek scholars reading this thread, maybe they can help us out?



P.S. -- I just googled "classical Greek declension" and came up with this Wikipedia entry in case you want to try to figure it out. :rollface:

P.P.S. -- Aurantonotus appears to be a Latinized form of the Greek -notos, in which case maybe it should have been changed to the Latinized aurantonota??? I'm really not sure about that. Obviously you can't change Greek words like acanthops or narcosis to Latin feminine endings. I just wonder if they're masculine, feminine or neuter in Greek???

 

[Ninong]

Luiz,

Just to be clear, there is no question that Centropyge loriculus was changed to C. loricula. The only question is whether that was necessary. Gerald Allen, John Randall and others changed it. I would be surprised if the Germans were making an issue of this if they didn't have a leg to stand on.

See what you can find out. And see what you can find out on those Greek species names that I pointed out.

Thanks,

 

[Cantonesefish]

I've always wondered how "Centropyge" was really pronounced... maybe one of you guys can tell me here

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

what defines a "substantive" name?

 

[Ninong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15671573#post15671573 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Cantonesefish
I've always wondered how "Centropyge" was really pronounced... maybe one of you guys can tell me here

I don't know if I'm correct or not but I have always pronounced it Cen-tro-PEE-gee (with a soft 'g'). However, it's Greek to me. :lol:

I have enough trouble figuring out how to pronounce Latin scientific names the way Americans pronounce them. In American scientific circles, the Latin names have been mostly Anglicized. For example, we say 'eye' for the last letter 'i' in dedicatory names: heraldi, potteri, eibli, etc. The correct Latin pronunciation for that final 'i' would be ee. However, some Europeans (except for the Brits who Anglicize every word they come across, especially French words) pronounce that final 'i' as ee (a long 'e').

Just look at how Americans pronounce the plural of alga. We say al-gee (soft 'g') but many (most) other English-speaking peoples pronounce it with a hard 'g' just as in the pronunciation of the singular.

How do you pronounce ceras or cephalopod? With a soft 'c' or a hard 'c'? The hard 'c' sounds like a 'k' to an American. Those are both Greek words. I think most Americans pronounce them with a soft 'c'.

 

[Ninong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15671821#post15671821 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LobsterOfJustice
what defines a "substantive" name?

I have no idea what the scientific definition is but the ordinary English definition would be a word possessing substance as opposed to an adjective which would be descriptive. So if loriculus is not an adjective, then I guess that means it's substantive. Anyway, I asked first so you have to wait your turn.

That's what we're trying to figure out. Exactly why the Germans say that loriculus is substantive and not descriptive. If it's from Latin, which I strongly suspect, then it almost certainly means little breast plate. I can't figure out any other meaning from Latin. And a breast plate would be substantive. In other words, a noun as opposed to an adjective.



P.S. -- However, the Latin word for breastplate, lorica, is feminine. So if that's where they got loriculus from, then the diminuitive should have been loricula and not loriculus. So maybe that means loriculus doesn't mean a little breastplate? Maybe it means something else? For example, think of the Roman emperor Caligula. Caligula was his nickname, meaning little boots, from the Latin caliga for boot. Since caliga is feminine, they used the feminine suffix -ula to make it little boots.

Luiz, you definitely have to look this one up. I'm dying to find out where the word loriculus comes from and exactly what it means.

 

[Ninong]

Luiz,

I just thought of another one: Centropyge joculator. Joculator is Latin for joker and it's masculine.



P.S. -- They probably left that one alone because there is no feminine form for joculator in Latin. It's masculine and that's it. Same as the Latin word dictator. I don't supposed they ever imagined having a female dictator. :lol:

Maybe the feminine form would be joculatrix? :lol:

 

[fishkid6692]

i pronounce cen-tro-pige. i pronounce the "y" as an "i" really. i believe this is the correct way but i'm not 100%.

 

[copps]

Hey guys, I just landed in San Diego and am about to hit the sack... tomorrow I work a full day and then speak for the San Diego Reef Club, so I may not be able to chime in for a couple of days...

Copps

 

[Ninong]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15672216#post15672216 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by copps
Hey guys, I just landed in San Diego and am about to hit the sack... tomorrow I work a full day and then speak for the San Diego Reef Club, so I may not be able to chime in for a couple of days...

Copps

Okay, in the meantime Luiz is going to find out exactly what loriculus is supposed to mean and somebody is going to tell us if my pronunciation of Centropyge is correct or not. I think it's Cen-tro-PEE-gee (soft 'g').

 

[Kinetic]

John, awesome post once again. You have the most insightful and interesting forum posts ever! Always exciting to see what you've found =)

 

[massman]

Good luck with the speech copps.

Pronounced

sen-tro-pie-gee

cheers

 

[BFG]

No, no, no, it's sen-to-me-pleez.....

 

[glassbox-design]

I believe the correct pronunciation would be "ken-tro-pie-gee". However, the soft C is most often used. Latin rarely exists in the spoken form. We anglicize everything and pronunciation varies by circle, culture and country. It also doesn't help matters when we use synthetic possessives like burgessi.

For example Chaetodontidae is actually "Key-to-don-ti-dee" but rarely will you hear anyone pronounce it that way. Most often I hear "Chat-o-don-teh-dye".

Here's something I put up a while ago on pronouncing scientific names. Truthfully there is no 100% correct pronunciation for every situation (e.g. Scientists v Historians). Use what you are comfortable with.



Ning, You're bringing back nightmares from grade school with all the -a / -us !

 

[massman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15672870#post15672870 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by glassbox-design
I believe the correct pronunciation would be "ken-tro-pie-gee". However, the soft C is most often used. Latin rarely exists in the spoken form. We anglicize everything and pronunciation varies by circle, culture and country. It also doesn't help matters when we use synthetic possessives like burgessi.

For example Chaetodontidae is actually "Key-to-don-ti-dee" but rarely will you hear anyone pronounce it that way. Most often I hear "Chat-o-don-teh-dye".

Here's something I put up a while ago on pronouncing scientific names. Truthfully there is no 100% correct pronunciation for every situation (e.g. Scientists v Historians). Use what you are comfortable with.



Ning, You're bringing back nightmares from grade school with all the -a / -us !

Interesting.
At uni (many years ago), it was always sen. However, as you mentioned, I for one have always pronounced chaetodontidae as key-to-don-ti-dee, as well as chaetodontoplus as key-to-don-toe-plus. Also chelmon as kel-mon.
I was always of the of the thought that the letter h (consonent) following the letter c , therefore it hardened the tone to k.
Because there is a vowel (e) following the c in centropyge, I always thought the consonent stayed soft ie sen. If it was spelt chentropyge, then I would agree with your ken- sentiments.

Having said all that, chelmon is most pronounced chell-mon!

Now I'm even more confused?

 

[Luiz Rocha]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15672324#post15672324 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ninong
Okay, in the meantime Luiz is going to find out exactly what loriculus is supposed to mean and somebody is going to tell us if my pronunciation of Centropyge is correct or not. I think it's Cen-tro-PEE-gee (soft 'g').

I am with you in this one Ninong, and I think it is both a soft "c" and soft "g".

Actually I have an interesting story about this. I am originally from Brazil, and as you may know we speak Portuguese there, which is much closer to Latin than English is, so I've learned to pronounce the names "latinized"; we actually had classes to learn this during my biology undergrad.

So, my very first trip to the US, back in 96, was to attend the American Ichthyology meeting and present a paper about my local fauna. In the end, Brian Bowen asked me if I had seen any Centropyge in my area, but he pronounced it in a way that I could not tell what the hell he was saying! Hahah! He pronounced it CentropAIGEE (with a hard G). So, "i" and "y"s are especially troublesome for me. I think they should all be "ee", even in names like randalli (yes, pronounced randallE would be closer to Latin).

Now, back to the case at hand, I also think it is soft "c" and "g" because they are soft before an "e" in all current Latin languages (Spanish, Portuguese, Italian), but I haven't researched that in detail and don't know for sure.

One thing I know for sure is the "ae", which in Latin is a single letter pronounced "e".

The origins of loriculus will have to wait for a bit, I haven't heard from my sources yet, and I am packing to go to Bali tomorrow morning. But I will keep you posted.

Haha, this thread is taking a strange turn!

 

[Luiz Rocha]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15672092#post15672092 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ninong
Luiz,

I just thought of another one: Centropyge joculator. Joculator is Latin for joker and it's masculine.



P.S. -- They probably left that one alone because there is no feminine form for joculator in Latin. It's masculine and that's it. Same as the Latin word dictator. I don't supposed they ever imagined having a female dictator. :lol:

Maybe the feminine form would be joculatrix? :lol:

Wow, complicated Ninong! In this case, I am pretty sure joculator is a "noun in apposition" (or a name transformed into an adjective) and those don't need to be the same gender as the genus.