The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
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Mr. Wilson
It's designed to not degrade as fast in salt water as normal cement does (salt water is an enemy of cement) but it hardens at a much lower pH right off the bat which is very important in a marine environment.
Insane Reefer,
Got the pm with the product link http://www.tropic-marin.com/web/english/produkte/biocalcium.htm
Didn't have to search to hard. It says 5ml will raise the calcium of 5 gallons of US water by 28 ppm. So that's the same thing as saying 1ml will raise 1 gallon by 28 ppm.'
We already knew 1 gram of Calcium Chloride Dihydrate will add 72 ppm of calcium to 1 gallon of water and now we know the TM Bio-Calcium product will add 28 ppm per 1ml. One semi-important thing is one is based on weight and the other by volume. Doesn't really matter as long as we can get the volume needed.
If we assume you still need 1 oz of calcium chloride. One ounce contains 28.47 grams. 28.47 grams of Calcium Chloride Dihydrate will add 2049.84 ppm calcium (28.47grams * 72 ppm).
Now that we know you need 2049.84 ppm of calcium and are using a product that adds 28 ppm per 1ml we can do the following math: 2049.84/28=73.2 ml of Bio-Calcium needed.
You could use the 5ml measuring spoon that comes with it or use 14.85 US teaspoons. 5ml is basically a teaspoon.
1 ml = 0.202884135 US teaspoons
Again keep in mind that exercise was based on 1oz of weight not volume on the original 2% needed.
Honestly for your purpose using the weight on such a small amount is OK but it's best to think of volume measurements instead of weight. IE 1 cup cement, 2 cups sand, 1 cup CC, 4.5 ml of Calcium Chloride.
With all that said and done a close shoot from the hip measurement that seems to work well is a teaspoon of Calcium Chloride per 8oz cup of cement. If you use a different product like BIO-Calcium just convert the PPM of calcium like we did above to "switch" products.
Hopefully this was of help,
Carlo
It's designed to not degrade as fast in salt water as normal cement does (salt water is an enemy of cement) but it hardens at a much lower pH right off the bat which is very important in a marine environment.
Insane Reefer,
Got the pm with the product link http://www.tropic-marin.com/web/english/produkte/biocalcium.htm
Didn't have to search to hard. It says 5ml will raise the calcium of 5 gallons of US water by 28 ppm. So that's the same thing as saying 1ml will raise 1 gallon by 28 ppm.'
We already knew 1 gram of Calcium Chloride Dihydrate will add 72 ppm of calcium to 1 gallon of water and now we know the TM Bio-Calcium product will add 28 ppm per 1ml. One semi-important thing is one is based on weight and the other by volume. Doesn't really matter as long as we can get the volume needed.
If we assume you still need 1 oz of calcium chloride. One ounce contains 28.47 grams. 28.47 grams of Calcium Chloride Dihydrate will add 2049.84 ppm calcium (28.47grams * 72 ppm).
Now that we know you need 2049.84 ppm of calcium and are using a product that adds 28 ppm per 1ml we can do the following math: 2049.84/28=73.2 ml of Bio-Calcium needed.
You could use the 5ml measuring spoon that comes with it or use 14.85 US teaspoons. 5ml is basically a teaspoon.
1 ml = 0.202884135 US teaspoons
Again keep in mind that exercise was based on 1oz of weight not volume on the original 2% needed.
Honestly for your purpose using the weight on such a small amount is OK but it's best to think of volume measurements instead of weight. IE 1 cup cement, 2 cups sand, 1 cup CC, 4.5 ml of Calcium Chloride.
With all that said and done a close shoot from the hip measurement that seems to work well is a teaspoon of Calcium Chloride per 8oz cup of cement. If you use a different product like BIO-Calcium just convert the PPM of calcium like we did above to "switch" products.
Hopefully this was of help,
Carlo
Insane Reefer
New member
Tomorrow, hopeful it will
Plus I have a really smart older college student who can coach me now that I know what I need.
I will re-read this tomorrow, and see what I make of it then.
I couldn't wait any longer, and made my rock - being an idiot, I tried to figure what I needed, and came up with that one ounce, so that is what I measured.
Hopefully it will work out ok - seemed to get stiffer, faster than it normally does, but that just might have been the heat getting to me, lol.
So when should I consider this cured, as in hydration close to finished? I guess Neptune's test tomorrow, and on subsequent days, should give a ballpark.
I am going to ponder your "puzzle" you posed originally - I have some ideas, but need to think some more.
Plus I have a really smart older college student who can coach me now that I know what I need.
I will re-read this tomorrow, and see what I make of it then.
I couldn't wait any longer, and made my rock - being an idiot, I tried to figure what I needed, and came up with that one ounce, so that is what I measured.
Hopefully it will work out ok - seemed to get stiffer, faster than it normally does, but that just might have been the heat getting to me, lol.
So when should I consider this cured, as in hydration close to finished? I guess Neptune's test tomorrow, and on subsequent days, should give a ballpark.
I am going to ponder your "puzzle" you posed originally - I have some ideas, but need to think some more.
Insane Reefer
New member
And thank you, Cayars - wasn't sure if I had said that or made it clear. I really appreciate the info and the time you took to write it up. My manners would have been better if I wasn't dripping sweat at midnight, lol - it is still 85°F here, right now.
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Neptune777
Premium Member
"If you have high pH in your tap you can lower it with many different acids include sulfuric acid which you can pick up at almost any LFS (API pH Down). A bottle of this will last a while. You of course can get it much cheaper if you know where to get it or you could use HCl (more potent) available at HD or Lowes. It's used to etch cement. The acids will lower both alk and pH. You can raise alk using either baking soda or washing soda (baked baking soda) depending on what you want to do to the pH.
Run with that and have fun.
Carlo"
So I am trying to fully understand what you have very generously shared with all of us rock geeks....
Are you saying that we could add say Muriatic Acid to the wet mix along with the calcium chloride to drive the PH down immediately?
Thanks!
Run with that and have fun.
Carlo"
So I am trying to fully understand what you have very generously shared with all of us rock geeks....
Are you saying that we could add say Muriatic Acid to the wet mix along with the calcium chloride to drive the PH down immediately?
Thanks!
Oy lots of stuff since my reply
IR:
The baking method is nice because of 1) The lack of water used and 2)The time it takes. It is not nice in the middle of the summer in Florida
I would probably do it again.
As for why they look different, Batch 2 was cast in Salt, while the baked goods were cast in Sand. I am still working on finding a mix I like as well as a casting method. For casting I think sand is the way to go, salt seems to leave poch marks that just seem too big to me.
As I have stated before, my biggest problem with DIY rocks is the diatom/algae bloom you get from them.
In an ideal world my process would work like this
1) Make rock (bake)
2) wait 1 week
3) place in system and not worry about the crud. (diatoms/algae bloom/etc)
All but 1 rock from batch 2 and bake rocks are sitting in a 10G with old salt water and a power head in my garage, trying my best to get part of the crud out.
IR:
The baking method is nice because of 1) The lack of water used and 2)The time it takes. It is not nice in the middle of the summer in Florida
I would probably do it again.As for why they look different, Batch 2 was cast in Salt, while the baked goods were cast in Sand. I am still working on finding a mix I like as well as a casting method. For casting I think sand is the way to go, salt seems to leave poch marks that just seem too big to me.
As I have stated before, my biggest problem with DIY rocks is the diatom/algae bloom you get from them.
In an ideal world my process would work like this
1) Make rock (bake)
2) wait 1 week
3) place in system and not worry about the crud. (diatoms/algae bloom/etc)
All but 1 rock from batch 2 and bake rocks are sitting in a 10G with old salt water and a power head in my garage, trying my best to get part of the crud out.
NO don't do that! Put some water in a 5 gallon container and "balance" in that. Then just use this water when making your rock.
In principle it's the same as many people do with their make up water. They run an RO/DI unit into a big trashcan and then up the alkalinity of this plus add calcium, etc to get the new salt water up to where they want it. Basically same approach with your cement "water".
Carlo
Neptune777
Premium Member
Ahhh that makes more sense! Should I add it to the water to make it more on acidic side or bring it to neutral? My Tap water is just a bit on the alk side on the scale......
Also, what are some brand names of Marine Cement, and what is the typical cost compared to cheap Type I/II Portland cement?
Slightly off topic as it doesn't strictly have to do with making rock but closely related and probably good for info:
If you're only making the rock for yourself or a friend or something the HIGH pH might not be as bad as you think and might be beneficial if used correctly.
For example I strive to keep my tank(s) pH at 8.5-8.6 with 8.3 being the lowest I let it get. This is actually much closer to real reef conditions then most people think because everyone quotes "average ocean pH" of 8.2 or so and use this as the "high side". Our corals don't come from the "average ocean" but from specific locations that happen to be on the higher side of "average". Anthony Calfo recently covered this in his mag and also says to strive for 8.5-8.6 with 8.3 being the min.
Probably a bunch of people here that make rock also drip kalk into their systems to raise the pH. Instead of dripping kalk you could add a piece or two of freshly made high pH rock into a sump or fuge and get the same affect.
You guys already covered the effect of the Kure and how it leaches the same as Kalk. Use it to your advantage.
Depending on your "equipment room" you can even make a trashcan reactor. For example early on I had a 150g stock tank in the basement. I put a big brute trashcan (44g inside the 150g) in it and filled it with freshly made rock (Portland I/II). I then used a small pump connected to my Neptune controller to pump water into the trashcan whenever my pH dropped below the threshold.
In the beginning the reactor will run for brief periods. Over time it needs to run longer and longer as there is less to leach out of the rock. When you get close to 100% reactor time the rock is "Kured" and it's time to put a fresh batch of rock in the reactor. The rock that was in the reactor is now full of good bacteria and can be moved to the tank, sump or other location.
If you have a Neptune controller (AC Jr works) you can even graph the "duty cycle" of a pump and see how often the pump is on or off. This gives you a nice visual to the Kure. The more the small pump is on the more "kured" the rock is. (You can't really go by the pH of the trashcan because water is getting moved in and out too often to balance out the tank).
I even make/sell reactors to replace kalk reactors based on the above "bucket reactor". Ice cube trays filled with pure cement (type I/II) gray cement make the perfect media for this on a small/home scale and a reactor can easily be made from common PVC pipe materials and a couple of taps. Nothing fancy just a big tube filled with cement "bricks" where the water is pumped up through the reactor via a checkvalve (stop backflow) and out the top tap. Really the only key is some type of automated controller based on pH (Neptune). Otherwise without a controller a Kalk drip is better.
Carlo
If you're only making the rock for yourself or a friend or something the HIGH pH might not be as bad as you think and might be beneficial if used correctly.
For example I strive to keep my tank(s) pH at 8.5-8.6 with 8.3 being the lowest I let it get. This is actually much closer to real reef conditions then most people think because everyone quotes "average ocean pH" of 8.2 or so and use this as the "high side". Our corals don't come from the "average ocean" but from specific locations that happen to be on the higher side of "average". Anthony Calfo recently covered this in his mag and also says to strive for 8.5-8.6 with 8.3 being the min.
Probably a bunch of people here that make rock also drip kalk into their systems to raise the pH. Instead of dripping kalk you could add a piece or two of freshly made high pH rock into a sump or fuge and get the same affect.
You guys already covered the effect of the Kure and how it leaches the same as Kalk. Use it to your advantage.
Depending on your "equipment room" you can even make a trashcan reactor. For example early on I had a 150g stock tank in the basement. I put a big brute trashcan (44g inside the 150g) in it and filled it with freshly made rock (Portland I/II). I then used a small pump connected to my Neptune controller to pump water into the trashcan whenever my pH dropped below the threshold.
In the beginning the reactor will run for brief periods. Over time it needs to run longer and longer as there is less to leach out of the rock. When you get close to 100% reactor time the rock is "Kured" and it's time to put a fresh batch of rock in the reactor. The rock that was in the reactor is now full of good bacteria and can be moved to the tank, sump or other location.
If you have a Neptune controller (AC Jr works) you can even graph the "duty cycle" of a pump and see how often the pump is on or off. This gives you a nice visual to the Kure. The more the small pump is on the more "kured" the rock is. (You can't really go by the pH of the trashcan because water is getting moved in and out too often to balance out the tank).
I even make/sell reactors to replace kalk reactors based on the above "bucket reactor". Ice cube trays filled with pure cement (type I/II) gray cement make the perfect media for this on a small/home scale and a reactor can easily be made from common PVC pipe materials and a couple of taps. Nothing fancy just a big tube filled with cement "bricks" where the water is pumped up through the reactor via a checkvalve (stop backflow) and out the top tap. Really the only key is some type of automated controller based on pH (Neptune). Otherwise without a controller a Kalk drip is better.
Carlo
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
The only one I know of is Aqua-Crete from New Zealand but it only differs in chloride content. This feature is only beneficial in eliminating spalling (cracking off) caused by a reaction with chloride ions and steel rebar within the concrete. Aqua-Crete has no other effect on performance in marine applications.
This is a valuable feature for bridges and pier pilings with steel rebar, but it isn't of any use to us. Stainless steel rebar is another method of addressing this issue.
Perhaps there are other marine grade cements out there with other properties.
Cayars: Are you manufacturing rocks commercially? Are these proprietary methods you are protecting?
This is a valuable feature for bridges and pier pilings with steel rebar, but it isn't of any use to us. Stainless steel rebar is another method of addressing this issue.
Perhaps there are other marine grade cements out there with other properties.
Cayars: Are you manufacturing rocks commercially? Are these proprietary methods you are protecting?
Wow! What progress in only a few days. And of course welcome back Travis!
My Perlcrete rock that I made was *very* brittle when I tried to pull it out of the mold (CC). It was sitting in the mold for 3 days with an open top. The top half of the rock was dry so I added some water to aid in hydration and covered it. I will uncover it in a few more days and hopefully it will have firmed up.
My Perlcrete rock that I made was *very* brittle when I tried to pull it out of the mold (CC). It was sitting in the mold for 3 days with an open top. The top half of the rock was dry so I added some water to aid in hydration and covered it. I will uncover it in a few more days and hopefully it will have firmed up.
Neptune777
Premium Member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10515730#post10515730 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
I'll make you go fishing for this one. However I'll give you a hint. Think back to ReefBalls. One of the links will help.
Google will get you this info also.
Carlo
Gee thanks....I think.
Anyway I'll share some info with everyone..... talking via email with an engineer who specializes in cement recomended the following to reduce the pH of the dry rock:
Use a CO2 chamber where the rock is exposed to a saturated CO2 environment. CO2 is heavier than air so I would imagine a brute trashcan with a sealed lid could work for this????
Neptune777
Premium Member
Wow...I would have expected the rock to be pretty firm in that time frame. What recipe and ratios did you use? Was is mixed extra dry or wet?
It was mixed fairly dry. It was ~2 parts quikcrete cement mix (has both portland and sand), 1-1.5 parts perlite, and a little bit of water. I think with this cement mix I need to add more water than I used to with my old portland techniques. I'm sure it will firm up it will just take a while longer.
Insane Reefer
New member
Anyone else feel like a mule with a carrot dangling in front of it's nose?
Cayars. First, could you please post images or links to images of your setup? The saltwater pond (in Jersey no less) intrigues me...
Next, let me try an appeal.
Several of us either sell our rock or have plans to do so. Travis, myself, Sunkool, and Neptune are either just starting to sell, or have been selling. Mr Wilson does that outstanding plumbing cover and wall work commercially. As far as I know, we keep no secrets from each other or the rest of the thread (at least as far as rock goes, lol).
I can't speak for the boys, but for myself I think of it in four ways.
1. People tend to be more lazy than they are cheap - even with knowing how to do it - even if they could do it in a day, many would still elect to buy it.
2. Every day we shave off of making rock means that hobbyists will become more likely to make their own rock, thereby reducing the stress on our oceans.
3. The marine aquarium is the fastest growing section of the hobby industry - everyday sees new recruits to our ranks - and they need rock and most will end up buying their rock.
4. Most of us who are making commercial rock are making limited quantities, a few hundred pounds a month, maybe more, maybe less - we certainly aren't in your league, nor would offer you much in the way of competition, even if we were to go online with it.
So please, please, pretty please, will you share at least the methods/steps that you use? As you pointed out, having an exact recipe is only part of the equation, and I think you could leave out things like exact amounts of this into that, or the like. I'd just like to know what the individual steps you use are. I for one don't mind research, and by replying with what I've asked, you will still leave us plenty to learn for ourselves. You just give us a better chance of getting it right.
Unless of course, you are having fun dangling the carrot?
I've looked back over the math from last night and to be honest, that math escapes me, and I'm not sure why. Could be that my basic math skills are almost non-existent. 13 moves from age 7-13, 3 states, so schooling was messed up and I slipped through the system - didn't know my multiplication tables until I was 14. College guy has offered to tutor me - he read your post and understands the math without even thinking about it. I might be in for some real mental anguish here - once he figures out were I'm at math-wise, he may decide to try to educate me - he's that sort of guy. Unfortunately, it has been more than 20 years since I went to school - not sure how well the brain still works...
lol
Cayars. First, could you please post images or links to images of your setup? The saltwater pond (in Jersey no less) intrigues me...
Next, let me try an appeal.
Several of us either sell our rock or have plans to do so. Travis, myself, Sunkool, and Neptune are either just starting to sell, or have been selling. Mr Wilson does that outstanding plumbing cover and wall work commercially. As far as I know, we keep no secrets from each other or the rest of the thread (at least as far as rock goes, lol).
I can't speak for the boys, but for myself I think of it in four ways.
1. People tend to be more lazy than they are cheap - even with knowing how to do it - even if they could do it in a day, many would still elect to buy it.
2. Every day we shave off of making rock means that hobbyists will become more likely to make their own rock, thereby reducing the stress on our oceans.
3. The marine aquarium is the fastest growing section of the hobby industry - everyday sees new recruits to our ranks - and they need rock and most will end up buying their rock.
4. Most of us who are making commercial rock are making limited quantities, a few hundred pounds a month, maybe more, maybe less - we certainly aren't in your league, nor would offer you much in the way of competition, even if we were to go online with it.
So please, please, pretty please, will you share at least the methods/steps that you use? As you pointed out, having an exact recipe is only part of the equation, and I think you could leave out things like exact amounts of this into that, or the like. I'd just like to know what the individual steps you use are. I for one don't mind research, and by replying with what I've asked, you will still leave us plenty to learn for ourselves. You just give us a better chance of getting it right.
Unless of course, you are having fun dangling the carrot?
I've looked back over the math from last night and to be honest, that math escapes me, and I'm not sure why. Could be that my basic math skills are almost non-existent. 13 moves from age 7-13, 3 states, so schooling was messed up and I slipped through the system - didn't know my multiplication tables until I was 14. College guy has offered to tutor me - he read your post and understands the math without even thinking about it. I might be in for some real mental anguish here - once he figures out were I'm at math-wise, he may decide to try to educate me - he's that sort of guy. Unfortunately, it has been more than 20 years since I went to school - not sure how well the brain still works...
lol
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Insane Reefer
New member
Mr Wilson.
This is what I was trying to get across when Sunkool and I where "debating" whether salt should be added dry at the beginning or at the end to prevent as much salt from leeching into the cement. I mentioned Sulfate/Salt Attack, and posted a link to support my position.
There are several types of "marine" cements, based on what is needed, most are considered sulfate resistant - this is also where the rebar comes in - resistant cement means less chance of rebar becoming corroded.
This is probably close to what Cayars is using (notice the 4-6 hours final set time):
http://www.bluecirclesouthern.com.au/Images/BCSC_common/pdf/tech_data/Marine_Cement_0506.pdf
Insane Reefer
New member
Yes, you will - Neptune and I both have reported that the mix needs to be heavier in water then what you might be used to mixing. I also think a touch more cement (up to 1/4 of a part) helps as well.
Keep in mind though, at least IME, it takes the Perlcrete longer to gain that final strength (esp with a dry mix) - after 2 weeks it is just tough as you could want it to be...
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