The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10504790#post10504790 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
I think that absorption factor is part of the key to rock with high biological filtration capacity. I've not seen anything to substantiate this either way, but it is my opinion that the waterproof cements will work for biological filtration, but not nearly as well as the non-fortified portland does.

While I have seen some tile grout that seems to "absorb" some water (turns dark when wet), I think I'm going to agree with you on this. Unfortunately we don't really know 100% if this absorption does in fact factor into biological filtration capacity...and somehow I don't know how we would ever figure this one out for sure....maybe make two rocks with equal size and shape, one out of plain portland, the other from the fast set, then seed them in the tank for a while. Then remove them and place them each in their own bucket full of water with equal amounts of nitrate, and see which one sucks up the nitrate fastest. Sounds like a lot of work to me :)

I am planning to use the perlite to hopefully open up some pores where this fast setting cement may have lost some. I'm my crazy head, it almost sounds like it would even out the equation.

Also, IR, where did you find your "blasting" sand? Is this something HD or Lowes would normally carry?
 
I finally had time to finish my testing and email IR, but my results were about the same as everyone else's, a PH of 9 after it was all done before the 2 week soak. So we can narrow the whole process down to what? 4 days now? If only we could grow coraline or get the diatoms out that fast we would be set!


(I am still lobbying for a death star IR :))
 
So I was thinking last night (As dangerous as that is ;o). If the Perlite is causing the rocks to float it would indicate that there exists air bubbles inside the Perlite. If this is so would this create a nitrate problem similar to the wet/dry bioballs? This would also reduce the available surface area for bacteria, because they will only grow in water.

This idea seems to have some logic behind it and if it does then would it be useful to some how force water into the Perlite before putting it in our rocks. Tonight I think I might pour some Perlite into a container of RO water and stir it up occasionally. It is my hope that some Perlite will sink and that will be the Perlite that I will put in my rock.

What does everyone think?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10507642#post10507642 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eshook
So I was thinking last night (As dangerous as that is ;o). If the Perlite is causing the rocks to float it would indicate that there exists air bubbles inside the Perlite. If this is so would this create a nitrate problem similar to the wet/dry bioballs? This would also reduce the available surface area for bacteria, because they will only grow in water.

This idea seems to have some logic behind it and if it does then would it be useful to some how force water into the Perlite before putting it in our rocks. Tonight I think I might pour some Perlite into a container of RO water and stir it up occasionally. It is my hope that some Perlite will sink and that will be the Perlite that I will put in my rock.

What does everyone think?

I think the air pockets in Perlite will do the opposite and reduce Nitrates. These will become anaerobic zones where denitrification can occur. Just like the pockets and pores in real rock. Bioballs produce nitrates because you are creating an environment for nitrifying bacteria to thrive (high surface area and high oxygen exchange).......you will have high surface area with Perlite but little to no oxgyen inside the rock in very short time. Two totally different reactions.
 
Neptune777 has that right. Even though the rocks float, they will eventually sink. After all, the perlite melted away because water got to them, then the water drained out and air went in, now as long as the perl-rock is in water, the air will eventually be forced back out and they will sink again.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10508105#post10508105 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
who is this Travis person?!?!?!?!?!?
No joke, huh? :lmao: I purposely haven't read this thread since the last time I posted. It'll take too much time at work to get caught up. I'm in the process of getting internet set up at home (finally!). When I do, I'll spend the next few hours reading and replying from page 26 in the last thread split :D I think I'll have my work cut out for me.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10508072#post10508072 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis L. Stevens
After all, the perlite melted away because water got to them, then the water drained out and air went in, now as long as the perl-rock is in water, the air will eventually be forced back out and they will sink again.

Hey Travis - nice to see you :p

But did I miss something? Who had perlite "melt" away? I certainly haven't, lol. The perlite stays in the Perlcrete.

I had to work at it to create a floating rock - but the rock that had marbles in it did indeed sink within 24 hours. Those pieces were not porous, and were packed very tightly, and because of the white cement, which can get really "slick", it has "sealed" the floating pieces pretty good. I think it has been close to two weeks and the remaining "Death Star" is still afloat...

I think it all comes down to pressure or something like it. Water will travel the path of least resistance - bubbles of trapped air could be hard to push through, increasing resistance. If there were enough pressure, the air might have a better chance of being pushed out of the perlite and then we might see the rocks that float, sink.

If that makes any sense?
 
Hmm.. See. I'm so far behind I think that I missed something. The Perlite is a silica based product that helps the rock Cure, correct? Isn't it either absorbed in to the rock or washed out and a void is left behind?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10507394#post10507394 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasonh
While I have seen some tile grout that seems to "absorb" some water (turns dark when wet), I think I'm going to agree with you on this.
Good :)
I didn't mean my previous post, with the example of dark cement, to be only for cement - grout is, after all, portland and sand, premixed for convenience, so homeowners won't have to try to figure it out themselves. Nowadays, grout often has additives as well, to make it perform it's intended application better. Among these additives are polymers, epoxies, fungicides and mildew prohibitors. I too have seen grout absorb water, just like cement does - this would indicate to me that that brand of grout didn't have polymers in it, and was thus, not waterproof...

Unfortunately we don't really know 100% if this absorption does in fact factor into biological filtration capacity
True, not much has been done scientifically with live rock.

...and somehow I don't know how we would ever figure this one out for sure....

Actually, that might work and would be fairly easy to accomplish at home, but I think a more scientific approach would be by organism count - something applied to other fields by laboratories. Two groups of rocks - one made, as you said, of fast-set or waterproof cement and one with the traditional - several rocks each, made in a form so the rocks are as similar as possible. Put them all in the same tank - keeping each group separate from the other. After 2 months (the average time the hobby says it takes to cure live rock from the ocean), slice each rock in half, taking a slice from the middle. Under a microscope, take a tally of the bacteria found, and compare the two. Conclusions could then be theorized.

I am planning to use the perlite to hopefully open up some pores where this fast setting cement may have lost some. I'm my crazy head, it almost sounds like it would even out the equation.
Not crazy. Mixing in aggregates will loosen the matrix to the rock and allow more water to flow through it.

Also, IR, where did you find your "blasting" sand? Is this something HD or Lowes would normally carry?

Arg! I have no idea what your HD or Lowes might carry - mine never has any of the things that some of you report finding.
Like the $10.99 perlite - been to both stores, and neither has it. Same with Pulverized Limestone...

My Big Box Stores Blow. :mad2:

I found my sand at my local ACE Hardware. Somewhere in the thread I posted details like company and whatnot, but those details escape me at the moment - possibly a search under my user name for "blasting" or "blaster" would pull that up for you. I think this sand also has on the bag that is can be used as filtration sand, FWIW.
Or next time I go to ACE, I can get that info, but searching will get it for you sooner. A tip on it - sand blasting sand comes in different grain sizes - for casting into, look for the smallest grain size offered - the smaller the grain, the less noticeable surface sand will be once the rock is all done.

:)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10508608#post10508608 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Travis L. Stevens
Hmm.. See. I'm so far behind I think that I missed something. The Perlite is a silica based product that helps the rock Cure, correct? Isn't it either absorbed in to the rock or washed out and a void is left behind?

It is silica, and initial test pieces did all have suspiciously low pH's, though I doubt it is because of the perlite, which is glassy and inert - thus, to my knowledge, not something that would engender a chemical reaction such as micro-silica has been reputed to do. Michealalans preliminary experiments with micro-silica have been disappointing.


A perlite Recap for those who are just joining us...
Think of silica as being glass popcorn. The base rock is heated, and then at a certain point, pops, creating rips and pores and increasing the rocks' volume and giving it a structure much like Crushed Coral, at least in respect to them both being fairly open. The only reason CC doesn't float is that the base element of calcium is heavy - silica is fairly light-weight compared.

A TDS test read 0 (two different users tested), and placing it directly in undiluted Muriatic acid produced no reaction - the acid actually evaporated (shot glass) and the perlite is still there...

Perlite is simply something to use in place of crushed coral, or at least that is the idea. Everyone who sees the "Disco Dancing Rock" in person, says it looks the most like real rock, and in part that is because of the round shape of the perlite - round had been a hard aggregate shape to find, but is the more commonly seen texture shape in rock like Fiji.

It also weighs next to nothing - so people wanting to make large rocks without having a 75lbs rock, can do so, and have that same rock weigh maybe 50lbs.

It should be noted that if cast fairly dry and loose, like we try to do with the Ol' Skool type rock, this stuff becomes crazy porous. Crazy. As in "I can see how this would collect poop and cause problems", kind of crazy. I'm finding that by using a slight bit more cement, and making a slightly wetter slurry, as well as slightly compacting it, all make for a rock that is porous, without having as much potential to collect crap.

My best pieces, IMO, have been to a 1 ratio, sand, cement, perlite, oyster shell, and then add a little more cement, like a 1/4 part. You don't really need salt, but I suppose it could be added like it would be in Ol' Skool+ recipes.

For those going really cheap, 1sand, 2perlite, 1 cement makes a very interesting, almost weightless rock that does not float.

Care needs to be taken while curing this rock - perlite is fragile, and while the hydration completes, it can be more likely to break then traditional rock with traditional aggregates does. It seems to harden up just fine though.

That is all I can think of right now.
Does that catch you up some?

Anyone want to add anything?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10507394#post10507394 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jasonh
Also, IR, where did you find your "blasting" sand? Is this something HD or Lowes would normally carry?

Doing a bit of searching on google, and I found what I use, it is made by Unimin, and according to some posts on other boards, it might be available at HD.

I can't find a picture of the bag, and threw mine away a while ago, but I think it was a brown bag, with medium blue printing. Industrial Quartz.
 
Nice Az :)
How would you say the "Set 2 rock" compares to the "Jiffy Rock"?
Talking terms of hardness, flaking, effort used to make the rock, etc.

Is it something you'd recommend?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10509584#post10509584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Azazael13
Warning! Warning! I don't bother to resize pictures, click at your own risk :)

Set 2 Rock 1
Set 2 Rock 2

JiffyPopRocks 1!
JiffyPopRocks 2!

Thanks for the pics! IMO the Rock 2 ones look better...


Also, IR, where did you find your "blasting" sand? Is this something HD or Lowes would normally carry?

I got 100lbs of white silica sandblasting sand at a local shop also. Open the yellow pages up to sand and gravel and start calling around. You'll track it down. 8 bucks for 100lbs, can't beat that!
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10509007#post10509007 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
It is silica, and initial test pieces did all have suspiciously low pH's, though I doubt it is because of the perlite, which is glassy and inert - thus, to my knowledge, not something that would engender a chemical reaction such as micro-silica has been reputed to do. Michealalans preliminary experiments with micro-silica have been disappointing.


A perlite Recap for those who are just joining us...
Think of silica as being glass popcorn. The base rock is heated, and then at a certain point, pops, creating rips and pores and increasing the rocks' volume and giving it a structure much like Crushed Coral, at least in respect to them both being fairly open. The only reason CC doesn't float is that the base element of calcium is heavy - silica is fairly light-weight compared.

A TDS test read 0 (two different users tested), and placing it directly in undiluted Muriatic acid produced no reaction - the acid actually evaporated (shot glass) and the perlite is still there...

Perlite is simply something to use in place of crushed coral, or at least that is the idea. Everyone who sees the "Disco Dancing Rock" in person, says it looks the most like real rock, and in part that is because of the round shape of the perlite - round had been a hard aggregate shape to find, but is the more commonly seen texture shape in rock like Fiji.

It also weighs next to nothing - so people wanting to make large rocks without having a 75lbs rock, can do so, and have that same rock weigh maybe 50lbs.

It should be noted that if cast fairly dry and loose, like we try to do with the Ol' Skool type rock, this stuff becomes crazy porous. Crazy. As in "I can see how this would collect poop and cause problems", kind of crazy. I'm finding that by using a slight bit more cement, and making a slightly wetter slurry, as well as slightly compacting it, all make for a rock that is porous, without having as much potential to collect crap.

My best pieces, IMO, have been to a 1 ratio, sand, cement, perlite, oyster shell, and then add a little more cement, like a 1/4 part. You don't really need salt, but I suppose it could be added like it would be in Ol' Skool+ recipes.

For those going really cheap, 1sand, 2perlite, 1 cement makes a very interesting, almost weightless rock that does not float.

Care needs to be taken while curing this rock - perlite is fragile, and while the hydration completes, it can be more likely to break then traditional rock with traditional aggregates does. It seems to harden up just fine though.

That is all I can think of right now.
Does that catch you up some?

Anyone want to add anything?


I really like using 2:1 ratio of Perlite to Type I/II Cement mixed a bit on the wet side. I don't add sand and I use the rock salt to cast with. I made a nice rock last night with this recipe using the Calcium Chloride. It is hard as nails today..and very light under water.

117984DSCN0493.JPG


117984DSCN0495.JPG
 
I was just going to try another shot at making my display piece for the 8g - I didn't get a chance to get dry calcium chloride.

Someone help me do the math for converting the liquid (10% solution) to the dry? I have Kent on hand and for a small batch, it can't be too much, but want to get close to the right ratio...

I'll be using 3 lbs of cement.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10510245#post10510245 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Very, very nice Neptune!
Can you get a close-up/macro shot of the texture?

Thanks! Here you go:

117984DSCN0491-1.JPG


117984DSCN0492-1.JPG
 
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