The Ultimate DIY Rocks!

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10516484#post10516484 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
...an engineer who specializes in cement recomended the following to reduce the pH of the dry rock:
Use a CO2 chamber where the rock is exposed to a saturated CO2 environment. CO2 is heavier than air so I would imagine a brute trashcan with a sealed lid could work for this????

That is almost word for word what I had gotten from Terry Collins at Cement.org. My email went on to say that the co2 needs to be applied under pressure for it to be efficacious enough to justify using co2...
And adding it to water makes carbonic acid, which may or may not be useful - the cement industry doesn't go for as much carbonation as we go for.

 

[Neptune777]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10517402#post10517402 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
That is almost word for word what I had gotten from Terry Collins at Cement.org. My email went on to say that the co2 needs to be applied under pressure for it to be efficacious enough to justify using co2...
And adding it to water makes carbonic acid, which may or may not be useful - the cement industry doesn't go for as much carbonation as we go for.

Yes, it has to be under pressure according to this guy as well.....I think we are talking with the same guy since cement.org is where I requested the info....I need to pull his email to check his name again.

How could we create a pressurized CO2 chamber? Easily and cheaply that is.....

 

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10517096#post10517096 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer
Anyone else feel like a mule with a carrot dangling in front of it's nose?

Cayars. First, could you please post images or links to images of your setup? The saltwater pond (in Jersey no less) intrigues me...

I can take a few pics. The "pond" is no big deal however. If you have ever saw a 300 gallon stock tank then just visualize it sitting outside full of rock with a skimmer attached. It is however attached to my inside tanks.

It's not a green house or anything like that. No covering, nothing. I was going to do both but haven't had any issues with salinity problems from rain or to much heat from the direct sunlight. I typically have over a 1200 watts of heaters constantly running even in the summer but when I connected the outdoor rig up to my inside system the heaters haven't had to run much. So it's saving me $ this way. During the winter I'll move the 300 tubs into the garage.

I've only lived here a few months and I'm still setting things up and gearing up to where I used to be. I've got another few 300 gallon stock tanks that aren't online yet. I'm debating if I want to build a green house or not. With that I'd gain a few more good months of high production and with proper UV protection could grow coralline algae on the rocks outside too. As of right now I haven't attempted to color up the rocks much outside. I bring them inside for that under PCs. However for the most part I haven't been able to keep up with the few stores buying the rock from me and they don't care if there is coralline algae or not as long as the rock is "brown" and looks like rock.

I certainly don't want to give the impression I'm doing anything like Walt Smith. Think big home/backyard production and you're thinking correctly.

I'll get some pics however in a day or two. It's raining out right now.

Let me digest the rest a little bit. If I wasn't planning on sharing info I wouldn't have posted in the first place. I may post exactly what I do as some people won't do it exactly the same anyway or seek out the same products which changes things a little. Part of it is just feel. For example you can describe the texture to mix up the water to and people will STILL do this differently which leads to different quality rock.

Regardless or not I'll pass along tips. For example the texture of the rock tends to be different depending on the grain size of the sand you use. Fine, course or mixed. The amount of water you use in the mix directly effects how porous the rock is. The wetter the mix the more porous the rock is and more benefit you get bacteria wise because of the way the rock hydrates. Downside to wetter mix is higher pH for longer periods of time.

Artificially lighter rock is not always good. Porous rock is good but you rock doesn't have to be light to be porous. Matter of fact if you are selling it light rock works against you. Of course there is nothing wrong with having both light and porous rock but it tends to not be as strong and can break down in the tank after a few years.

I don't use artificial heat (stove/BBQ grill) or anything like that. I went down that road before and it wasn't worth it. I previously made use of my pool for kuring but haven't found the need to do that anymore. The key I've found to good strong rock is keeping the rock moist during the kure. This can be as simple as wet kuring the rock by keeping it submerged (not needed) or spraying the rock down with water once or twice a day and throwing some plastic on top of it to keep the moisture in. I myself just add it to my salt system because I can but others won't be able to do that.

I'm really liking the outdoor pond setup because it causes the diatoms and whatnot that most people don't want. I like it! They "stain" the rock a nice brown color pretty quickly and get the rock off to a good color start. I'll snap some pics of rock a few days old showing this.

Let me see if I can help with the math some. Just tell me this. Do you use a specific amount of cement in weight or volume. IE do you weigh it out first or just use something like a 16/32 oz cup. If you do it the second way can you weigh a cup on a scale and tell me how much it weighs? I'll give you proportions to use based on that.

Carlo

Next, let me try an appeal.

Several of us either sell our rock or have plans to do so. Travis, myself, Sunkool, and Neptune are either just starting to sell, or have been selling. Mr Wilson does that outstanding plumbing cover and wall work commercially. As far as I know, we keep no secrets from each other or the rest of the thread (at least as far as rock goes, lol).
I can't speak for the boys, but for myself I think of it in four ways.
1. People tend to be more lazy than they are cheap - even with knowing how to do it - even if they could do it in a day, many would still elect to buy it.
2. Every day we shave off of making rock means that hobbyists will become more likely to make their own rock, thereby reducing the stress on our oceans.
3. The marine aquarium is the fastest growing section of the hobby industry - everyday sees new recruits to our ranks - and they need rock and most will end up buying their rock.
4. Most of us who are making commercial rock are making limited quantities, a few hundred pounds a month, maybe more, maybe less - we certainly aren't in your league, nor would offer you much in the way of competition, even if we were to go online with it.
So please, please, pretty please, will you share at least the methods/steps that you use? As you pointed out, having an exact recipe is only part of the equation, and I think you could leave out things like exact amounts of this into that, or the like. I'd just like to know what the individual steps you use are. I for one don't mind research, and by replying with what I've asked, you will still leave us plenty to learn for ourselves. You just give us a better chance of getting it right.
Unless of course, you are having fun dangling the carrot?

I've looked back over the math from last night and to be honest, that math escapes me, and I'm not sure why. Could be that my basic math skills are almost non-existent. 13 moves from age 7-13, 3 states, so schooling was messed up and I slipped through the system - didn't know my multiplication tables until I was 14. College guy has offered to tutor me - he read your post and understands the math without even thinking about it. I might be in for some read mental anguish here - once he figures out were I'm at math-wise, he may decide to try to educate me - he's that sort of guy. Unfortunately, it has been more then 20 years since I went to school - not sure how well the brain still works...
lol [/B]

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10514012#post10514012 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cayars
If you're only making the rock for yourself or a friend or something the HIGH pH might not be as bad as you think and might be beneficial if used correctly.

Yes, Cayars, this was something we talked about before the last split, I think it was. Even pH kured rock will still boost ALK for several months - my backwall was 3 weeks old when I installed it, in like May, I want to say off the top of my head. My ALK is still reading quite high (I have no way of knowing what it actually is - my test doesn't go that high), and my pH is around 8.6. My wall weighed 7lbs I think, and my water capacity is 6.5g.

Several others reported similar experiences so we sort of concluded the same thing you are talking about

I'm still stumped as to why it is so hard to keep the calcium up in my "almost no load" tank - my other tank, that contains no cement rock has no problems with calcium, but the cement wall tank does. Another member also reported this trouble, and searching google also reveals that it happens to a lot of folks. I think I read once that CA and ALK are closely tied, and if one is high, the other becomes more difficult to maintain, but I am not sure if that has anything to do with it or not. My other best idea, I'm told by folks on the board, is unlikely, though I am hoping to be able to do some tests this fall on it - if I can find access to the test equipment needed or the people who have access. But no one has offered any explanation for the phenomenon.

Have you any thoughts on why calcium is hard to maintain in high ALK (cement rock) tanks?

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10517447#post10517447 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune777
Yes, it has to be under pressure according to this guy as well.....I think we are talking with the same guy since cement.org is where I requested the info....I need to pull his email to check his name again.

How could we create a pressurized CO2 chamber? Easily and cheaply that is.....

LOL - and people teased me for wanting to make a rock oven/sauna :lol:

To pressurize anything, safely, is expensive - trust me, I did some preliminary research on it, and if a rock sauna is "over-board", well, a pressurized chamber, that if, is even slightly wrong, could blow up, discharging flying rocks everywhere - is plain suicide, IMO.
As crazy as I am, I drew the line there.

 

[cayars]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10517556#post10517556 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Insane Reefer

I'm still stumped as to why it is so hard to keep the calcium up in my "almost no load" tank - my other tank, that contains no cement rock has no problems with calcium, but the cement wall tank does. Another member also reported this trouble, and searching google also reveals that it happens to a lot of folks. I think I read once that CA and ALK are closely tied, and if one is high, the other becomes more difficult to maintain, but I am not sure if that has anything to do with it or not. My other best idea, I'm told by folks on the board, is unlikely, though I am hoping to be able to do some tests this fall on it - if I can find access to the test equipment needed or the people who have access. But no one has offered any explanation for the phenomenon.

Have you any thoughts on why calcium is hard to maintain in high ALK (cement rock) tanks?

You're just out of balance. What you need to know is the exact alk level you are at. What your current calcium level is and ALSO what you Magnesium is.

Carlo

 

[cayars]

Actually I got thinking about this and though I should post it. The actual "recipe" doesn't matter that much. It's more of a texture thing as some of you like CC and others like only sand while others use CS. Doesn't really matter.

The key to getting fast turnaround rock is:

drum roll

 

[Neptune777]

Well I checked and it was Terry Collins I spoke with!

Anywho I got another email from him and he said that the CO2 does not have to be under pressure to work. Under pressure means it will work faster on dense rock. However if the rock is porous (like ours) pressure might not be needed as much. It would easy to test with a mason jar with a small chunk of fresh rock, inject CO2, and seal it with a lid....let sit for a day or two and test pH....

 

[cayars]

Use a fast drying cement. Mix/add in miro silica to balance the pH.

You can use a wetting agent if needed to make the cement easier to handle without loosing strength.

That's it. The key to pH is fast drying cement AND miro silica. You get directions with miro silica and you can play from there a little based on your pH and other rock "additives".

I remember someone bringing this up before but then it kind of died off quickly. I don't know if anyone ever tried it but that the key for me.

For the average person it's going to be to much hassle to find it so they'll continue to use type I/II cement. For anyone already doing this on a more "mass" scale I'm sure they already know/use miro silica.

BTW, this is the same thing ReefBalls does which is why I mentioned it earlier since that had been brought up in the thread many moons ago.

Carlo

 

[Insane Reefer]

Cool - good to know!
Michealalan did a bit of playing with the micro-silica, but I think he was using regular portland, not a fast set. He said in those tests that he saw no noticeable improvement in pH.]
We will have to wait to see what he says.

Micro-silica is difficult to find locally in a lot of places - some masonry shops don't even know what it is. It can be gotten online:
http://www.cementec.ca/concrete.html
And I'm sure at other places as well...

Thanks again, Cayars
You Rock!

 

[Insane Reefer]

Can I ask you Cayars, does a treatment of acid occur before you consider the rock done? You had mentioned acceptable acids earlier, and I think you were talking in terms of lowing pH of mixing water prior to use, but is there a follow up, perhaps to promote carbonation or the like?

I'm off on a new quest - to convert the methods we consider traditional to a new faster, non-baked method, with the info we had gotten from Reefball/Michealalan, and now from you. I'm sure Neptune will be into this too.

Perhaps Michealalan would share where he found his micro-silica? Or sell smaller amounts to certain of us testers? I'd personally like to try some first before buying a 50# bag.

 

[badfish03]

Here are some manufacturers of micro-silica and the dry powder product they carry. One type should be available locally at a concrete specialty store.

Elkem Chemicals EMS 960
Master Builders MS-SF
Simcala Inc. Simcala Microsilica
W.R. Graves Force 10,000D
Burgess Pigment Co Optipozz
Sika Corp. Sikacrete 950DP

 

[jasonh]

Hmm....micro silica, huh? You know, once Travis posted the chemical reactions with Silica that take place, I thought to myself, "ok, why not just use a silica-based product to reduce kure time?" Hey, it happens

I'm curious to see how this turns out with the silica. I think I'll just have to stay on the sidelines for this one...It's tough to do some testing in my bitty apartment

 

[mr.wilson]

Micro-silica may be the active ingredient in the fast-setting concrete additive they sell at Home Depot. It says on the label that it isn't calcium-based, but it could still be polymer-based.

Fast-setting cement only takes a few hours to stabilize PH, and standard portland seems to only take a week or two for many, so I don't see an advantage to using any other products or procedures.

 

[bigtex52]

I'd just like to find a source for it in the Dallas area to try out. The cement guys I have talked to look at me like I have a horn growing out of my forehead when I ask about silica fume or microsilica.

 

[bigtex52]

mr. wilson,

I retrieved the MSDS from the Quikrete Hydraulic Water stop and this is what it lists for ingredients:
Hazardous Components CAS No. PEL (OSHA) TLV (ACGIH)
mg/M3 mg/M3
Silica Sand, crystalline 14808-60-7 10 0.05 (respirable)
%Si02+2
Portland Cement 65997-15-1 5 5
May Contain one or more of the following ingredients:
Amorphous Silica 07631-86-9 80 mg/M3 10
% SiO2
Calcium Sulfate 10101-41-4 or 5 5
13397-24-5
Lime 01305-62-0 5 5
Fly Ash 68131-74-8 5 5
Calcium Aluminate Cement 65997-16-2 5 5
Clay 01332-58-7 5 5
Pulverized Limestone 01317-65-3 5 5

Is the amorphous silica the same as silica fume?

 

[bigtex52]

I found a company on line that has this description of silica fume:

Fritz-Pak Silica Fume is a finely-divided mineral admixture, available in both uncompacted and compacted forms. It is a pozzolanic material which is composed of highly refined silicon dioxide in the non-crystalline form. Silica Fume will chemically react with the calcium hydroxide released by the hydration of portland cement to form compounds possessing superior cementitious properties. This ultra-fine material will better fill voids between cement particles and result in a very dense concrete with higher compressive strengths and extremely low permeability.

Is the use of this admix affecting or even destroying the desired porosity of the finished rock? Obviously, you can make the rock more porous by using less water but how will this affect how the silica fume works? Just a few thoughts.... BTW, here is the link for the company I found:

http://fritzpak.com

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520421#post10520421 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
The cement guys I have talked to look at me like I have a horn growing out of my forehead when I ask about silica fume or microsilica.

I KNOW THAT LOOK! :hmm4:

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520729#post10520729 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
Is the use of this admix affecting or even destroying the desired porosity of the finished rock?

This is something that is sort of an area of contention.
By its nature, Water Stop would be non-porous - it is meant to seal. So not an ideal product IMO for nice porous rock. Mr Wilson uses this (or products like it) to create rock covering and walls, not biological filtration rock. Adding in aggregates and making a drier mix will loosen it some, but I think if we can locate a source for Microsilica, then using traditional portland, in addition to the calcium chloride and microsilica would be the best solution.

 

[Insane Reefer]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10520729#post10520729 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bigtex
IBTW, here is the link for the company I found:

http://fritzpak.com

Hey! Awesome!
Using your link, and using the Retailer Locator on the site, I found a local place that is supposed to have it.
Carter-Water Const. Materials

Never even knew this place existed...
I'll call tomorrow