goldmaniac
New member
will do. I'll toss in one or two of many heaters I have that don't shut off anymore
i knew there'd be a use for those things hah
i knew there'd be a use for those things hah
The Ultimate DIY Rocks!
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
goldmaniac
New member
Monday night 2/11/08: emptied trashcan of MMLR and set out to dry out
Tues night 2/12/08: scrubbed down trashcan with 5% white vinegar, removed lots of crud; trashcan looks new. returned [dried] MMLR to bucket, filled with tap water, pH=7.1, added heater
*lets 2 days pass*
Thurs night 2/14: tested water with Salifert pH kit, bypassing the wide-range pH test strips. range of Salifert Ph is 7.2 - 8.6. low 7's indicated by light green test water, 8.6 indicated by light blue test water
pH of kuring water WAY over 8.6, off the Salifert test range, test water is dark blue.
it's Type I cement, think this is why I've been kuring this rock for 5 months now and still pH=9+ ?
Tues night 2/12/08: scrubbed down trashcan with 5% white vinegar, removed lots of crud; trashcan looks new. returned [dried] MMLR to bucket, filled with tap water, pH=7.1, added heater
*lets 2 days pass*
Thurs night 2/14: tested water with Salifert pH kit, bypassing the wide-range pH test strips. range of Salifert Ph is 7.2 - 8.6. low 7's indicated by light green test water, 8.6 indicated by light blue test water
pH of kuring water WAY over 8.6, off the Salifert test range, test water is dark blue.
it's Type I cement, think this is why I've been kuring this rock for 5 months now and still pH=9+ ?
goldmaniac
New member
wow. unbelievable.
where are you located? what is 'local'?
\ and i love how LFS are now jacking up the prices of small/juv fish because nano tanks are getting popular. b@stards.
where are you located? what is 'local'?
\ and i love how LFS are now jacking up the prices of small/juv fish because nano tanks are getting popular. b@stards.
Insane Reefer
New member
Not sure that light blue to dark blue constitutes WAY off the chart - more likely it is in the 9.5 range (as you've thought), which, really, isn't that high.
But I would imagine it is annoying to be so close, yet so far away...Almost positive this isn't the case - while there are some minor differences between Type 1 and Type 2, the differences aren't that great and I've (and many others) used type 1 before and didn't have a prolonged kure...
I'm leaning more toward the cold water during the coldest months being responsible for the delayed kure. You didn't by any chance throw this stuff into the kure bin within days of casting it did you? I've had a couple of people PM me about lengthy kures and most of them threw the rock into the kure bin within 3-5 days of casting it. Gotta wonder if that has something to do with it.
Start the wet/dry thing I described, Goldman - every 3 days drain it and let it dry out, then refill the next day. Test before draining and you will get an idea of when it is ready.
This is about the best advice I can offer at this point.
Keep us posted, eh?
Insane Reefer
New member
At $25/lbs it had better be made of solid gold, lol.
Does it at least look good, have lots of life showing? We typically get "dead" rock around here (not "base", but pretty close) - not even coralline growth, but then our rock is $5/lbs.
Makes shipped rock look a lot more attractive...
Does it at least look good, have lots of life showing? We typically get "dead" rock around here (not "base", but pretty close) - not even coralline growth, but then our rock is $5/lbs.
Makes shipped rock look a lot more attractive...
hi again insane, i made a rock and i think i used to mutch cement(cant remember how mutch now)i cooked it and its been in a 5g bucket for well over a month close to two i think, its a thick dense rock(first try)and there is still stuff floating on top, i havent tested the PH yet but wouldent that mean it still has a wile to go?
and iam going to be makeing more i the next few days sence i realy need my tank setup and i planed to cook it again but is the rock sauna you mentioned a better way? will it still take afew months to cure? and i casted a new rock in salt(and theres some in it)if i cook it should i try and get the salt off first?
and iam going to be makeing more i the next few days sence i realy need my tank setup and i planed to cook it again but is the rock sauna you mentioned a better way? will it still take afew months to cure? and i casted a new rock in salt(and theres some in it)if i cook it should i try and get the salt off first?
Insane Reefer
New member
Hey there Silence - good to hear from you again
1. Go easy on the cement. More cement means more hydrates that need leeching, and contrary to common sense, the higher the aggregate to cement ratio, the stronger concrete becomes. Typical construction concrete is usually a mix of 1:6 - one part cement to 6 parts "other". We generally go for 3-4 parts "other" to make a more workable mud, but one could go as high as 5 or 6 parts and have really porous, quickly kuring rock.
2. Stuff floating does not preclude the rock being kured, but does make it more unlikely - but it would be a good time to check it just to get an idea of where it is at.
3. How much rock is in that little bucket? 5g buckets are ok for a rock, maybe two, but water volume is the key to a faster kure. I assume you've been changing water?
4. Did you treat the rock with vinegar or did you skip that and go straight to the water?
5. No more "cooking" of the rock! The rock sauna is the way to go if you want quickly cured rock using steam. "Baking" does "work", but the future risks to the rock are too great for me to say "Do it this way." Not to mention that the MRS means no fumes and no mess that can't be hosed out, and if you have a propane burner, this can even be done outdoors when the weather permits...
6. When we make rock, there are really two parts - the cure (where the rock gains strength), and the kure (where we leech out the calcium hydrates). Curing of rock takes around 30 days, unless it is accelerated (say, with steam or admixture). Since we are talking about steaming here, curing is reduced from 30 days to around 24-48 hours. Unfortunately, kuring takes as long as kuring takes. Density of the rock can effect the kure. Temperature can effect the length of kure. Lack of proper water changes can effect the kure. Using vinegar (or other acid) can speed it up, but again, acid isn't the best thing for cement, so you have to decide for yourself if the potential risk is worth it. Without acid, my average kure time is around 3 weeks, but then I am also changing water every 3 days for the first week or so, using heaters in the bins and make perlcrete, which is very porous. If I use acid, that time-frame is reduced to less than 2 weeks.
7. Leave the salt alone until after the steam - it does make it a bit harder to remove the salt, but by leaving it alone, there are fewer sodium molecules freely available that want to become part of the cement - less sodium, better cure. Once it is done steaming, you can put the rock in hot water (less than 65-70°C) to dissolve the salt more quickly and start the kure. The kure should also proceed more quickly in hot water, so that is a bonus.
Hope this answers your questions. If I missed something, just give a holler and I'll do my best to help you out
1. Go easy on the cement. More cement means more hydrates that need leeching, and contrary to common sense, the higher the aggregate to cement ratio, the stronger concrete becomes. Typical construction concrete is usually a mix of 1:6 - one part cement to 6 parts "other". We generally go for 3-4 parts "other" to make a more workable mud, but one could go as high as 5 or 6 parts and have really porous, quickly kuring rock.
2. Stuff floating does not preclude the rock being kured, but does make it more unlikely - but it would be a good time to check it just to get an idea of where it is at.
3. How much rock is in that little bucket? 5g buckets are ok for a rock, maybe two, but water volume is the key to a faster kure. I assume you've been changing water?
4. Did you treat the rock with vinegar or did you skip that and go straight to the water?
5. No more "cooking" of the rock! The rock sauna is the way to go if you want quickly cured rock using steam. "Baking" does "work", but the future risks to the rock are too great for me to say "Do it this way." Not to mention that the MRS means no fumes and no mess that can't be hosed out, and if you have a propane burner, this can even be done outdoors when the weather permits...
6. When we make rock, there are really two parts - the cure (where the rock gains strength), and the kure (where we leech out the calcium hydrates). Curing of rock takes around 30 days, unless it is accelerated (say, with steam or admixture). Since we are talking about steaming here, curing is reduced from 30 days to around 24-48 hours. Unfortunately, kuring takes as long as kuring takes. Density of the rock can effect the kure. Temperature can effect the length of kure. Lack of proper water changes can effect the kure. Using vinegar (or other acid) can speed it up, but again, acid isn't the best thing for cement, so you have to decide for yourself if the potential risk is worth it. Without acid, my average kure time is around 3 weeks, but then I am also changing water every 3 days for the first week or so, using heaters in the bins and make perlcrete, which is very porous. If I use acid, that time-frame is reduced to less than 2 weeks.
7. Leave the salt alone until after the steam - it does make it a bit harder to remove the salt, but by leaving it alone, there are fewer sodium molecules freely available that want to become part of the cement - less sodium, better cure. Once it is done steaming, you can put the rock in hot water (less than 65-70°C) to dissolve the salt more quickly and start the kure. The kure should also proceed more quickly in hot water, so that is a bonus.
Hope this answers your questions. If I missed something, just give a holler and I'll do my best to help you out
the funny thing is that the $25 per pound rock is not even that impressive, it is not encrusted with coraline algae and does not appear to be full of life, just like the rock you describe, IR.
does anyone know what walt smith rock is colored with? Is it a cement colorant?
does anyone know what walt smith rock is colored with? Is it a cement colorant?
Last edited:
Insane Reefer
New member
Hey MMM
I do believe WS uses a cement colorant - it wouldn't be Quikcrete color as they don't make a purple, but there are many companies that make colorant.
I've seen the WS rock in person, and almost everyone who has posted pictures of their rock here has made nicer looking rock, lol.
And the LFS sat on 75lbs of it for over 3 months before finding someone to take it.
When you can get get really nice rock shipped for less than $4/lbs, It makes you wonder what the LFS's are thinking...
I do believe WS uses a cement colorant - it wouldn't be Quikcrete color as they don't make a purple, but there are many companies that make colorant.
I've seen the WS rock in person, and almost everyone who has posted pictures of their rock here has made nicer looking rock, lol.
And the LFS sat on 75lbs of it for over 3 months before finding someone to take it.
When you can get get really nice rock shipped for less than $4/lbs, It makes you wonder what the LFS's are thinking...
goldmaniac
New member
Insane,
alright, so I'm draining my kuring tub, letting the rock dry overnight, and filling up with fresh water and a heater for another 48 hour soak. Repeat.
But it's driving me crazy as I can't figure out... why let the rock dry between kures? I'm following your advice, but I have to know the reason... thanks
alright, so I'm draining my kuring tub, letting the rock dry overnight, and filling up with fresh water and a heater for another 48 hour soak. Repeat.
But it's driving me crazy as I can't figure out... why let the rock dry between kures? I'm following your advice, but I have to know the reason... thanks
Insane Reefer
New member
Ok, Goldman, let me see if I can explain my thought process on this. And no-one should ever hesitate to ask for an explanation or clarification of something someone says in a post - it always helps if you understand the processes you are using.
Keep in mind that this is sort of theoretical. The information leading up to it is solid, but my implementation of the mechanics might not be spot on yet, but my personal use of this sort of thing has been fairly successful, so hopefully it will help your situation.
First, drying the rock should have a sort of "wicking" effect. As the rock dries from the outside in, I think the possibility for the calcium hydrates to be pulled along with the water that is evaporating as the rock dries out, is greatly accelerated. Once on the surface, calcium hydroxide chemically reacts with carbon dioxide and is converted into calcium carbonate.
Secondly, in the construction/cement industry, a lot has been done on carbonation and structures. Not particularly helpful, except for tidbits gleaned, like "Repeated wet-dry cycles promote carbonation."
So it makes sense, at least to me, that repeated wettings and dryings could help out here.
Keep in mind that this is sort of theoretical. The information leading up to it is solid, but my implementation of the mechanics might not be spot on yet, but my personal use of this sort of thing has been fairly successful, so hopefully it will help your situation.
First, drying the rock should have a sort of "wicking" effect. As the rock dries from the outside in, I think the possibility for the calcium hydrates to be pulled along with the water that is evaporating as the rock dries out, is greatly accelerated. Once on the surface, calcium hydroxide chemically reacts with carbon dioxide and is converted into calcium carbonate.
Secondly, in the construction/cement industry, a lot has been done on carbonation and structures. Not particularly helpful, except for tidbits gleaned, like "Repeated wet-dry cycles promote carbonation."
So it makes sense, at least to me, that repeated wettings and dryings could help out here.
goldmaniac
New member
gotcha, wet/dry pulls Ca(HO2) out and the drying converts it to carbonate. certainly worth a try.
thanks
thanks
Anyone have time to summarize the process of making rocks....This thread is WAY too long to just pick up and start reading/learning!
Basically here is a list I need filled:
Best type of cement - I, II, etc.?
Best type of salt - Large/small, food grad/driveway grade, etc.?
Any other additions - aragonite, etc.
Best ratio - 4:1, 6:1?
Any rock forming info - molds, techniques, etc?
What about using a dye or something (to make the rock look better) - food coloring, commercial cement colorant?
What steps for curing - (all of it)
Sorry if this is too much to ask, but it would take me days and days to read the whole thread. Plus, I can't be the only one that has not looked at every post....
Thanks,
Basically here is a list I need filled:
Best type of cement - I, II, etc.?
Best type of salt - Large/small, food grad/driveway grade, etc.?
Any other additions - aragonite, etc.
Best ratio - 4:1, 6:1?
Any rock forming info - molds, techniques, etc?
What about using a dye or something (to make the rock look better) - food coloring, commercial cement colorant?
What steps for curing - (all of it)
Sorry if this is too much to ask, but it would take me days and days to read the whole thread. Plus, I can't be the only one that has not looked at every post....
Thanks,
goldmaniac
New member
MTHOMPSON:
go back to page one (this page one, two pages back) to Insane Reefers post at 1/5/08 11:40 pm, it's a full summary.
go back to page one (this page one, two pages back) to Insane Reefers post at 1/5/08 11:40 pm, it's a full summary.
michaelalan
New member
Goldmanic, what's the pH of your water before you add it to your kure tub?
goldmaniac
New member
approx 7.1 - 7.2
just north of 7.0
just north of 7.0
goldmaniac
New member
approx 7.1 - 7.2
just north of 7.0
just north of 7.0
michaelalan
New member
I was thinking that your start water might be high, but I guess that's not it.
