The whole coral pricing has become a joke

[mikeatjac]

I see that you've been here since 04. When did you first notice the sudden increase in prices for these tiny frags which have gotten even smaller?

I have been in the hobby for 40 years. Actually I think it is cheaper now than it has ever been.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Really? How so? Sorry for all the questions. Just curious, won't bug yah anymore

 

[mikeatjac]

Really? How so? Sorry for all the questions. Just curious, won't bug yah anymore

My first skimmer was a foamator. Cost about 800 and did not do much. Live stock was limited, mostly damsels. Corals were softies with out much color but priced high. When SPS were available, mostly brown but priced like some of today's best. Test kits were about the same price. Good lighting, VHO, was more expensive then. Most equipment was cheaply made.

Taking inflation into account, IMO, it was more expensive then.

 

[reefwars]

My first skimmer was a foamator. Cost about 800 and did not do much. Live stock was limited, mostly damsels. Corals were softies with out much color but priced high. When SPS were available, mostly brown but priced like some of today's best. Test kits were about the same price. Good lighting, VHO, was more expensive then. Most equipment was cheaply made.

Taking inflation into account, IMO, it was more expensive then.

My first live rock bought at $22 a lb lol which was what the only store sold it for at the time

 

[dkeller_nc]

Taking inflation into account, IMO, it was more expensive then.

Interesting - I also have the same perspective, except for livestock. I started my first reef tank in 1990 after keeping freshwater critters for many, many years. Many newbs (and some longer term hobbyists) on RC complain about reefing equipment being very expensive to the point of "not worth it". They're typically talking about name-brand DC controlled pumps, LED lighting, skimmers, and ancillary equipment like electronic ATOs.

I find this amusing because I have the distinct memory of MH reflectors, bulbs and ballasts being very pricey in the 1990 - 1995 time frame, and high-quality VHO ballasts like the Ice Cap 660 not being especially cheap, either. One typically ran a medium to large sized reef tank with Iwaki MD pumps, which were really expensive back in the day. And Tunze Stream pumps were incredibly pricey when they came out, and that didn't include a controller.

One can't, of course, compare things like electronic ATOs with optical sensors, dedicated reef tank controllers and modern DC electronic pumps to the same thing in 1990 because they didn't exist.

But overall, I see the minimally required equipment for a reef tank being far, far less expensive than the 1990's. That, of course, assumes that one is OK without the latest and greatest toys and just goes for a T5HO fixture, a decent needle-wheel skimmer, a few AC non-controllable propeller pumps, and ATO, and a decent AC return pump. Paired with a mass-market glass tank, a reef tank's way, way cheaper than it was back then.

But I honestly don't have that same perception when it comes to corals. If my favored local shop in 1995 had tried to apply a goofy name to even very colorful 1" frags for $50 or more, there would have been a mass boycott from the local reef club. Folks back then expected that any coral for sale was a full colony (exactly how big that was depended on the species, but no less than 3" or more), and any broken off 1-2" frags were leftovers that the shop gave away.

In a way, though, the current silliness over "Limited Edition" labels, goofy coral names, and selling of tiny frags may be a good thing. Sites like Sexy Corals, Unique Corals, World Wide Corals, Cherry Corals and the like that employ these sorts of marketing techniques might make the more traditional LFS more attractive to the newbie. For one, it's pretty difficult to "live photoshop" a coral in the tank, and while some species will glow under actinic, it's pretty obvious to the buyer that the tank is lit with actinics, and the same coral won't look the same under more color-balanced lighting.

 

[SeattleReefer]

the silly names coincide with the maturation of the Pokemon generation- coincidence?

 

[dkeller_nc]

the silly names coincide with the maturation of the Pokemon generation- coincidence?

Perhaps not. Odd thing is, folks of my generation had plenty of comic books - I grew up reading Spiderman, Superman, X-men, Batman and many other lesser-known comics. But when we got to our late teens, we saw these as juvenile (because they were), so we would've never considered things named after comic book heroes as appropriate for adults.

That seems to have changed....

 

[dkeller_nc]

BTW, for those interested on the topic, there's a flash-sale going on at "the other reef tank forum" by World Wide Corals that's instructive. Specifically, it appears 95% of the interested parties on the thread are newbs, at least judging from their post count and join date.

Hilariously enough, there's quite a frenzy over what I think most of us would consider very high-priced merchandise, almost all with really silly names. Two particular examples caught my attention - $125 for a single eye of "WWC Oblivion Chalice" (regularly $200 for a 1/2" diameter piece, apparently), and a 2-polyp group of zoas sale-priced for "only" $60.

Buyer beware, indeed.

 

[sde1500]

There seems to be a frenzy for every one of their live sales. 1600 corals going up this weekend. Whatever they are doing it clearly works.

It is interesting seeing the differing opinions from the long time reefers. Clearly tech has come a long way, but it seems like variety for corals has too. Online shops and Photoshop does make it hard to determine if a coral really is as bright as they show, but some of the more well known places seem to have a good reputation, including the one hosting this weekends flash sale. I'd argue those places do less damage to this hobby than places like reefs2go where the reputation is horrible, sells you dead or dying livestock, and makes it hard to get money back.

 

[Bent]

Perhaps not. Odd thing is, folks of my generation had plenty of comic books - I grew up reading Spiderman, Superman, X-men, Batman and many other lesser-known comics. But when we got to our late teens, we saw these as juvenile (because they were), so we would've never considered things named after comic book heroes as appropriate for adults.

That seems to have changed....

I wanted to name my kids weapon X1 and weapon X2.....

Maybe they haven't changed that much. Lol

 

[ksc]

BTW, for those interested on the topic, there's a flash-sale going on at "the other reef tank forum" by World Wide Corals that's instructive. Specifically, it appears 95% of the interested parties on the thread are newbs, at least judging from their post count and join date.

Hilariously enough, there's quite a frenzy over what I think most of us would consider very high-priced merchandise, almost all with really silly names. Two particular examples caught my attention - $125 for a single eye of "WWC Oblivion Chalice" (regularly $200 for a 1/2" diameter piece, apparently), and a 2-polyp group of zoas sale-priced for "only" $60.

Buyer beware, indeed.

Just another example of "The whole coral pricing has become a joke" myth exposed. I clicked on a random page and the 3 frags listed were $50, $30, and $20. This is from a licensed, insured, by the book vendor with a B+M and web presence. No wonder the pimp shuffling frags out his back door for $15-$30 has gone on a tirade.

 

[ksc]

I see you have been here since 03. When did you notice your zoas selling business decline and get bitter?

Have you noticed it's always the guys that had nice little under the table business's going that do 95% of the ranting? It appears they had a nice little setup here on RC pimping their corals. Then when these aquaculture facilities gained in popularity and started farming some top notch corals they made a failed attempt to slander these reputable business's.

I run into these clowns in the construction industry. We call them a "Chuck in a truck". Running around with no license or insurance trying to undercut the legitimate companies. They use the free sites like Craigslist to advertise their illegal "services". Sound familiar?

 

[oseymour]

The whole coral pricing has become a joke

I spent the last month or visiting different LFS around the NYC area.

In Long Island, I saw large zoa rocks 3 for 45. I'm talking dozens of polyps each. I asked why the price is so cheap and the owner said that these were wild collected.

I visited a couple of other stores with name brand zoas and the prices were 50 bucks for a couple of polyps and these were aquacultured.

Could it be that years ago because everything was going wild collected it was cheaper and today because it takes time and money to grow corals in greenhouses here in the US it's more expensive?

Nowadays, I mostly trade corals with other reefers on Manhattan Reefs. I find a lot of local reefers there. I'll grow frags but the plan is to trade it for something else not make a profit. I knew this was a money pit coming in.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dkeller_nc]

Could it be that years ago because everything was going wild collected it was cheaper and today because it takes time and money to grow corals in greenhouses here in the US it's more expensive?

No doubt. But very, very little of what is offered in the US is actually wild collected any longer. Zoas, in particular are maricultured on an epic scale in Vietnam, Bali and other sites near the coral triangle - most of these can be purchased for $50 - $100 for a few dozen to a hundred on a rock. These are the ones that I run into at a favored LFS that I frequent, and run an amazing gamut of colors that, at least to my eye, aren't any different than the 1 & 2 polyp offerings from 'net aquaculture sites.

To each his/her own, of course, but I much prefer the LFS's offerings from Pacific mariculture facilities. Seems like a much better deal, just as cool, and very, very importantly for me, don't have a silly name.

 

[oseymour]

No doubt. But very, very little of what is offered in the US is actually wild collected any longer. Zoas, in particular are maricultured on an epic scale in Vietnam, Bali and other sites near the coral triangle - most of these can be purchased for $50 - $100 for a few dozen to a hundred on a rock. These are the ones that I run into at a favored LFS that I frequent, and run an amazing gamut of colors that, at least to my eye, aren't any different than the 1 & 2 polyp offerings from 'net aquaculture sites.



To each his/her own, of course, but I much prefer the LFS's offerings from Pacific mariculture facilities. Seems like a much better deal, just as cool, and very, very importantly for me, don't have a silly name.

Got it, the LFS with the great zoas said they were from Vietnam, he may have meant maricultured not wild collected.

Do you have a link to the pacific mariculture website? Or LFS they supply in the NYC area?

 

[MUCHO REEF]

dkellar makes a great point, most of what comes to market is maricultured. But allow me to revert back to most every link I've posted to give you guys a time reference. These price hikes began overnight in 04/05, there were no dramatic overnight increase in shipping cost. There was absolutely no talk or affirmation of global bleaching that sent zoa prices from $40 per medium to $50 for a large colony, to $20, $30 and $50 A POLYP. The same for mushrooms. There were no market variables on land or sea that caused these rip off prices in 04/05. It was a few greedy reefers who started lying regarding rarity, giving them silly names, chopping up every mother colony they saw, purchased, ordered or received and this is how we got here. You need to ask the people who were here when it all happened.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...id=913053&highlight=disturbing+zoanthid+trend

http://test.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1920486

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1304962&highlight=mucho

Some of these polyp pimps are so afraid of the truth being revealed. Read the truth for yourself above.

 

[dkeller_nc]

Got it, the LFS with the great zoas said they were from Vietnam, he may have meant maricultured not wild collected.

Do you have a link to the pacific mariculture website? Or LFS they supply in the NYC area?

The places that the LFS orders from are wholesalers that operate out of Bali. So far as I know, they'll sell to anyone with a CC, but boxes of corals are sold "Freight on Board", meaning that you're paying for the corals at the locations in Indonesia, and then paying for the air-freight yourself. That air freight is stiff - typically 4 to 5 times the value of the corals, and there's no DOA guarantee.

If you're nevertheless interested in buying corals by the box, I'd be glad to get the exporter's sites/contact info and P.M. it to you (I know the owner of the LFS quite well). Realize that a lot of these folks send out stock lists by e-mail, they don't typically have have websites, though some do.

The only business that I'm aware of that sort of goes "halfway" between being what amounts to an importer yourself and a retail situation is Livestock USA. He essentially serves as a middleman, so you pay him for boxes of corals, and he handles the import stuff. He has a very good reputation, but I should caution that I've only used him to purchase live rock from Jakarta. I was pleased with that purchase, because getting "real deal" indo-pacific rock has become more difficult from retail outlets in the U.S., though Bulk Reef Supply has started importing it from Fiji.

 

[dkeller_nc]

Whatever they are doing it clearly works.

Yep, genius marketing. Their set-up takes advantage of the fleabay tendency of folks to go nuts over auctions on the "but I might miss it!" thought, but under more controlled circumstances that curtails the possibility of a listing going for well under what they'd otherwise wish to sell it for. Setting a high "list price" and halving it is also excellent marketing strategy - big retailers employ exactly the same strategy with "Black Friday" sales.

 

[heathlindner25]

Ok

dkellar makes a great point, most of what comes to market is maricultured. But allow me to revert back to most every link I've posted to give you guys a time reference. These price hikes began overnight in 04/05, there were no dramatic overnight increase in shipping cost. There was absolutely no talk or affirmation of global bleaching that sent zoa prices from $40 per medium to $50 for a large colony, to $20, $30 and $50 A POLYP. The same for mushrooms. There were no market variables on land or sea that caused these rip off prices in 04/05. It was a few greedy reefers who started lying regarding rarity, giving them silly names, chopping up every mother colony they saw, purchased, ordered or received and this is how we got here. You need to ask the people who were here when it all happened.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/s...id=913053&highlight=disturbing+zoanthid+trend

http://test.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1920486

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1304962&highlight=mucho

Some of these polyp pimps are so afraid of the truth being revealed. Read the truth for yourself above.

Why do you continue to repost the SAME OLD post over, and over ,and over , and over,and over,and over? You like repeat youself? DC

 

[heathlindner25]

And over, and over ,and over, and over,and over......