The whole coral pricing has become a joke

[MUCHO REEF]

Idk I'm not really buying that , so your saying that 99 out of 100 people are are only in it to make a buck I find that hard to believe though ....sure lots do but not all I mean that's hard math to swallow based on nothing but an opinion is it not?

Out of curiosity how did you come up with that assumption or conclusion ??

I'm glad you ask. Not being mean or disrespectful in any way as we are just discussing this, Agreed?

Maybe I spoke in hast as I'm not on fb nor their zoa page and I have no idea what they are paying. However you disagreed with my opinion, which is fine, then you agreed with it, then you questioned it which is also fine.

Let's speak from a common sense perpective ok? The average reefer only has one tank, correct?

More often than not based upon everything we see in the hobby today, said reef is loaded with tiny plugged frags, would you agree with that?

Since I already know this doesn't apply to any of the close reefing buddies I have nor any of my 10 students, I'll ask you just in case you have an answer. ( No, that was not a dart btw, and I'm not being condescending in any way, I'm only asking) . What percentage of the reefers you know are into buying, selling or trading zoas and palys?

What percentage will buy at any cost and will swiftly hack, glue, photograph and sell the first baby that sprouts?

I ask because the one guy that I know who does this, jumped ship and began lying to reefers and telling them everything he had was rare, named and hard to fine. He even admits to it as he has been blinded by greed. So I ask you again, what percentage engages in the practice of buying just to sell for profit as soon as something is chopable?

As I said before, maybe I spoke in hast as I don't actually know what they're paying for their 1 and 2 polyp frags on fb, but I can assure you they are paying rip off prices. You yourself agreed with me above.

My point is this, many will pay these sky high prices because they are only buying to sell later as this has become the new standard and most everyone is doing it. Come on my friend, you know this already. This is why most tanks are glorified frag tanks loaded with racks and rows of plugs. I received a link a month ago from a student regarding a local reef tank loaded with zoanthids and proclaimed the best tank ever seen. My student laughed, why? The entire tank consisted of frag plugs all glued next to each other.......no proper spacing.....pour placement.....many retractions in the picture. it was a reef that was built and not grown. Again, this has become the standard.....buying plugs, fragging plugs, trading plugs, chopshopping every new sprout for profit.

So you tell me sir, whom is buying to sell vs whom is buying to allow these frags to grow into mature colonies?

MUCHO REEF

 

[ksc]

I'm glad you ask. Not being mean or disrespectful in any way as we are just discussing this, Agreed?

Maybe I spoke in hast as I'm not on fb nor their zoa page and I have no idea what they are paying. However you disagreed with my opinion, which is fine, then you agreed with it, then you questioned it which is also fine.

Let's speak from a common sense perpective ok? The average reefer only has one tank, correct?

More often than not based upon everything we see in the hobby today, said reef is loaded with tiny plugged frags, would you agree with that?

Since I already know this doesn't apply to any of the close reefing buddies I have nor any of my 10 students, I'll ask you just in case you have an answer. ( No, that was not a dart btw, and I'm not being condescending in any way, I'm only asking) . What percentage of the reefers you know are into buying, selling or trading zoas and palys?

What percentage will buy at any cost and will swiftly hack, glue, photograph and sell the first baby that sprouts?

I ask because the one guy that I know who does this, jumped ship and began lying to reefers and telling them everything he had was rare, named and hard to fine. He even admits to it as he has been blinded by greed. So I ask you again, what percentage engages in the practice of buying just to sell for profit as soon as something is chopable?

As I said before, maybe I spoke in hast as I don't actually know what they're paying for their 1 and 2 polyp frags on fb, but I can assure you they are paying rip off prices. You yourself agreed with me above.

My point is this, many will pay these sky high prices because they are only buying to sell later as this has become the new standard and most everyone is doing it. Come on my friend, you know this already. This is why most tanks are glorified frag tanks loaded with racks and rows of plugs. I received a link a month ago from a student regarding a local reef tank loaded with zoanthids and proclaimed the best tank ever seen. My student laughed, why? The entire tank consisted of frag plugs all glued next to each other.......no proper spacing.....pour placement.....many retractions in the picture. it was a reef that was built and not grown. Again, this has become the standard.....buying plugs, fragging plugs, trading plugs, chopshopping every new sprout for profit.

So you tell me sir, whom is buying to sell vs whom is buying to allow these frags to grow into mature colonies?

MUCHO REEF

I would bet less than 5% are buying polyps to sell. It just isn't happening. In my area if you listed a single polyp frag for $50, it is likely you would get no response or only negative responses. Sure it's happening, but at a very low level.

Don't worry, sooner or later someone will figure out how to breed corals. Then you'll see corals getting patented like happens in the plant world. It would be illegal to frag your new patented coral...

 

[rockworm]

So basically, Mucho, you are saying that your common sense should tell all of us that everyone is selling is a chop shop.

You did not answer reefwars question. You cited two individuals who sell for big profits, so everybody must be doing it.

I agree that most people have one tank. However, I do not agree that they are all just frag tanks. I look on RC, and other forums, and I see all kinds of tanks with both colonies and frags.

Now if I look at build threads, I do tend to see a lot of frags. The average new reefer is not going out hunting for big colonies at cheap prices. Frags are cheap and allow a new person to start collecting.

I have been following this thread all along and I would not pay some of the prices I see. But others will. I dont begrudge them because of this. I also dont paint all vendors with the same brush.

There are unscupulous vendors out there, for sure. Just like there is in the auto industry, the jewelry industry, the clothing industry, etc.

The buyer has a greater responsibilty than the seller. The vendor fills a gap. The value of a frag is not what price a coral is listed at. The value of a frag is what a buyer is willing to pay. If I feel the value is less than the listed price, I wont buy it. My value is not based on what another person thinks it should be. Bottom line, if your value is not worth the price dont buy it.

One final question: why is it necessary to always write in bold?

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I would bet less than 5% are buying polyps to sell. It just isn't happening. In my area if you listed a single polyp frag for $50, it is likely you would get no response or only negative responses. Sure it's happening, but at a very low level.

Don't worry, sooner or later someone will figure out how to breed corals. Then you'll see corals getting patented like happens in the plant world. It would be illegal to frag your new patented coral...

Lol.....you're not being realistic. It's different in the U.S.

Every overpriced POLYP is not $50.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

So basically, Mucho, you are saying that your common sense should tell all of us that everyone is selling is a chop shop.

You did not answer reefwars question. You cited two individuals who sell for big profits, so everybody must be doing it.

I agree that most people have one tank. However, I do not agree that they are all just frag tanks. I look on RC, and other forums, and I see all kinds of tanks with both colonies and frags.

Now if I look at build threads, I do tend to see a lot of frags. The average new reefer is not going out hunting for big colonies at cheap prices. Frags are cheap and allow a new person to start collecting.

I have been following this thread all along and I would not pay some of the prices I see. But others will. I dont begrudge them because of this. I also dont paint all vendors with the same brush.

There are unscupulous vendors out there, for sure. Just like there is in the auto industry, the jewelry industry, the clothing industry, etc.

The buyer has a greater responsibilty than the seller. The vendor fills a gap. The value of a frag is not what price a coral is listed at. The value of a frag is what a buyer is willing to pay. If I feel the value is less than the listed price, I wont buy it. My value is not based on what another person thinks it should be. Bottom line, if your value is not worth the price dont buy it.

One final question: why is it necessary to always write in bold?

Please read this entire thread sir and post #685....it's all there and many agree. If someone buys only to Hack-a-Shaq, chop shop, frag off etc or whatever you choose to call it, every single new polyp that shows up and sells it, yes sir. It has been discussed hundreds of times.

I did answer it, you might not like my answer. Everyone isn't doing it, most are.

Whenever I speak about corals, I'm speaking of zoas, palys and mushrooms as that is what I have always kept. Please share with us all of the mature zoanthid and mushroom covered reef tanks. Not doubting you, just please share them.

If one is lying about rarity, claiming some stupid lineage, photoshopping beyond belief for added profits, claiming they have to one and only just released limited edition yadda yadda, they're in the same boat.

And I don't buy them and many others do not as well.

 

[ksc]

Lol.....you're not being realistic. It's different in the U.S.

Every overpriced POLYP is not $50.

Maybe in the US of Michigan. Just for laughs I checked the local forum. Every coral for sale over $50 got little to no response as I posted above. As a matter of fact the prices were almost the same as the pimps in the early 2000's were selling for them. This was the Boston Reefers Society. You can check it yourself. You can even check the RC for sale forums, same thing.

When I started reefing in the 90's most people either traded corals or gave them away. It appears the pimps started selling these common polyps starting in the late 90's. Maybe the new pimps are just smarter than the old pimps.....

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I didn't say that. I said you can get rocks of those zoas pictured above in post 685. When I recently got my tank going again I went on ebay and picked up 10 frags from5-20 polyps for around $5-10 each. No one bid on them...

Glad you got them.

 

[rockworm]

Please read this entire thread sir and post #685....it's all there and many agree. If someone buys only to Hack-a-Shaq, chop shop, frag off etc or whatever you choose to call it, every single new polyp that shows up and sells it, yes sir. It has been discussed hundreds of times.

I did answer it, you might not like my answer. Everyone isn't doing, most are.

Whenever I speak about corals, I'm speaking of zoas, palys and mushrooms as that is what I have always kept. Please share with us all of the mature zoanthid and mushroom covered reef tanks. Not doubting you, just please share them.

If one is lying about rarity, claiming some stupid lineage, photoshopping beyond belief for added profits, claiming they have to one and only just released limited edition yadda yadda, they're in the same boat.

And I don't buy them and many others do not as well.

Oh I have read this whole thread. I said that I was following it. I read post 685, and just re-read it again. All I see is opinion and a couple of anecdotes. Even Anthony Calfo said in his article, http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/ac/index.php that it was his opinion. From paragraph 9: "œSupply and demand" is an excuse that gets abused too often and shamelessly, in my opinion.' (emphasis added) I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Calfo, but it is an opinion, not a fact.

What specifically was your answer to reefwars question: "...so your[sic] saying that 99 out of 100 people are are only in it to make a buck...Out of curiosity how did you come up with that assumption or conclusion?" I am sorry, but all I see is an opinion that everyone must be pimping, or whatever you want to call it. Yet at in the same message, you stated: Maybe I spoke in hast as I'm not on fb nor their zoa page and I have no idea what they are paying. But in your opinion, they are paying too much because all are doing it. "As I said before, maybe I spoke in hast as I don't actually know what they're paying for their 1 and 2 polyp frags on fb, but I can assure you they are paying rip off prices."

I know you are speaking of zoas, palys and mushrooms. (The same is happening with SPS.) You claimed: More often than not based upon everything we see in the hobby today, said reef is loaded with tiny plugged frags, would you agree with that? I certainly wont speak for @reefwars, but I don't see "more often than not only a frag tank". In fact, I am doubting you. You made the claim, so the onus is on you to validate this as fact.

Finally, I do not trade in corals and the only time I sold any was when I took down my coral tanks, so I am not defending anything as a vendor. Hyperbole not withstanding, I just find that painting all vendors as greedy schmucks and all who purchase these "named corals" as greedy schmucks is foolish.

 

[heathlindner25]

So basically, Mucho, you are saying that your common sense should tell all of us that everyone is selling is a chop shop.

You did not answer reefwars question. You cited two individuals who sell for big profits, so everybody must be doing it.

I agree that most people have one tank. However, I do not agree that they are all just frag tanks. I look on RC, and other forums, and I see all kinds of tanks with both colonies and frags.

Now if I look at build threads, I do tend to see a lot of frags. The average new reefer is not going out hunting for big colonies at cheap prices. Frags are cheap and allow a new person to start collecting.

I have been following this thread all along and I would not pay some of the prices I see. But others will. I dont begrudge them because of this. I also dont paint all vendors with the same brush.

There are unscupulous vendors out there, for sure. Just like there is in the auto industry, the jewelry industry, the clothing industry, etc.

The buyer has a greater responsibilty than the seller. The vendor fills a gap. The value of a frag is not what price a coral is listed at. The value of a frag is what a buyer is willing to pay. If I feel the value is less than the listed price, I wont buy it. My value is not based on what another person thinks it should be. Bottom line, if your value is not worth the price dont buy it.

One final question: why is it necessary to always write in bold?

Great point

 

[reefwars]

I'm glad you ask. Not being mean or disrespectful in any way as we are just discussing this, Agreed?

Maybe I spoke in hast as I'm not on fb nor their zoa page and I have no idea what they are paying. However you disagreed with my opinion, which is fine, then you agreed with it, then you questioned it which is also fine.

Let's speak from a common sense perpective ok? The average reefer only has one tank, correct?

More often than not based upon everything we see in the hobby today, said reef is loaded with tiny plugged frags, would you agree with that?

Since I already know this doesn't apply to any of the close reefing buddies I have nor any of my 10 students, I'll ask you just in case you have an answer. ( No, that was not a dart btw, and I'm not being condescending in any way, I'm only asking) . What percentage of the reefers you know are into buying, selling or trading zoas and palys?

What percentage will buy at any cost and will swiftly hack, glue, photograph and sell the first baby that sprouts?

I ask because the one guy that I know who does this, jumped ship and began lying to reefers and telling them everything he had was rare, named and hard to fine. He even admits to it as he has been blinded by greed. So I ask you again, what percentage engages in the practice of buying just to sell for profit as soon as something is chopable?

As I said before, maybe I spoke in hast as I don't actually know what they're paying for their 1 and 2 polyp frags on fb, but I can assure you they are paying rip off prices. You yourself agreed with me above.

My point is this, many will pay these sky high prices because they are only buying to sell later as this has become the new standard and most everyone is doing it. Come on my friend, you know this already. This is why most tanks are glorified frag tanks loaded with racks and rows of plugs. I received a link a month ago from a student regarding a local reef tank loaded with zoanthids and proclaimed the best tank ever seen. My student laughed, why? The entire tank consisted of frag plugs all glued next to each other.......no proper spacing.....pour placement.....many retractions in the picture. it was a reef that was built and not grown. Again, this has become the standard.....buying plugs, fragging plugs, trading plugs, chopshopping every new sprout for profit.

So you tell me sir, whom is buying to sell vs whom is buying to allow these frags to grow into mature colonies?

MUCHO REEF

I'm pretty sure 1% of 8000 people would be the text book definition of lots yes i used my example of 8000 refers and even gave the name of the site and I can assure you these people are hobbyist and some sellers as well as its a open group , but You instantly shrugged them off as anterior motive sellers so I ask where is the debate in this seems you never seen the site and made a judgement on these people in a matter of seconds , doesn't quite seem fair which is what this whole thread is about no?


Edit : what percentage do I think of reefers are buying , selling and trading corals you ask? All lol what else is there to do with them if your not trading, buying or selling lol how does one acquire a coral if not bought traded or sold lol I don't have an ocean near me so collecting wildly is not an option

Edit 2 lol: I should mention if you had of went to that site you would have noticed that none sell its actually not allowed neither is price checks , it's a group to discuss and show off zoanthids and systems be it expensive or cheap my point being everyone or most I should say are happy and proud to show off their purchases price is never even mentioned lol

 

[MUCHO REEF]

MUCHO FOR PRESIDENT!

Well said sir

lol.....thanks, but no thanks

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Maybe in the US of Michigan. Just for laughs I checked the local forum. Every coral for sale over $50 got little to no response as I posted above. As a matter of fact the prices were almost the same as the pimps in the early 2000's were selling for them. This was the Boston Reefers Society. You can check it yourself. You can even check the RC for sale forums, same thing.

When I started reefing in the 90's most people either traded corals or gave them away. It appears the pimps started selling these common polyps starting in the late 90's. Maybe the new pimps are just smarter than the old pimps.....

lol.....pimpin is pimpin, old or new

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1304962&highlight=mucho

 

[MUCHO REEF]

Adam did a write up about photoshopping on another reefsite. It was a good long one. Props to Adam for writing that up.

BTW- you want to stop all these price gouging....... STOP BUYING AT THESE STUPID PRICES that are just fueling the craze. People won't ask for stupid prices when there are individuals that will pay for it regardless of price. If you have a hundred people stop paying for a certain coral and only a handful of "Well off" individuals are left paying, do you think that price remains the same. This topic has come up over a hundred times and has been talked about for years and years now. It starts with you the hobbyist, you ARE the first cog that turns the gears. If you are shelling out hundreds or thousands for a SINGLE polyp, 1/4" frag or an eye of a coral then you are just continuing to allow this to continue.

Do you really think the individuals selling these corals for a couple thousand spent hundreds or thousands to get these pieces?? Ask those divers in the 3rd wold countries how much they're getting paid. How much the dealers are selling these to these collectors or vendors who end up marking these corals up 300-1000% which you the customer ends up paying. In the end, its all a choice and a freedom to do so.

I myself choose not to aid in continuing these practices or environment.

Just remember, when you pay these sky high prices you are only encouraging it to continue. Don't buy into the hype and craze.

 

[M4rz]

I guess I am one of those idiot buyers that didn't realize these types of practices are taking place. (I should know better, do more research, after all we have the Internet, etc) I am new to the hobby and was of the impression that per polyp pricing and all these wonderfully pretty zoas, palys and mushrooms were out of my price range. Regardless of the opinions and debates in this post, it has been informative. Wish there was a livestock USA.org in my neck of the woods.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

I guess I am one of those idiot buyers that didn't realize these types of practices are taking place. (I should know better, do more research, after all we have the Internet, etc) I am new to the hobby and was of the impression that per polyp pricing and all these wonderfully pretty zoas, palys and mushrooms were out of my price range. Regardless of the opinions and debates in this post, it has been informative. Wish there was a livestock USA.org in my neck of the woods.

Trust me, you're not an idiot. You didn't know and none of the people taking your money were going to tell you. This thread is a mere means of educating new reefers such as yourself so you too will be enlightened. Just make sure to share this with someone else like yourself.

Align yourself with local reefers and local reef clubs for the best deals. Some of us will even give you free corals but please stay away from per polyp sales.

You should start from the very beginning of this thread and read 2 pages per until the end. Trust me, you'll be shocked even more by what you'll learn my friend. Good luck.

FYI...some great reading here for you...http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2316723

Mooch

 

[reefwars]

I guess I am one of those idiot buyers that didn't realize these types of practices are taking place. (I should know better, do more research, after all we have the Internet, etc) I am new to the hobby and was of the impression that per polyp pricing and all these wonderfully pretty zoas, palys and mushrooms were out of my price range. Regardless of the opinions and debates in this post, it has been informative. Wish there was a livestock USA.org in my neck of the woods.

Ok but here's what I don't get and I don't think your an idiot either but at the time of purchase you must have thought what you were buying was a good enough buy to pay for it , regardless of the amount of $10 or $10k there had to be something happen where you thought I'm gonna buy this ......if you bought blindly then what can anyone say but if you seen what you were buying you had a budget how did you go wrong ?

 

[M4rz]

What I will say is that the prices were all similar, whether I looked online or at LFS. Bare in mind I am very new to the hobby, so I have no point of "historical" reference or friends that are into the hobby. I joined forums to learn, make mistakes and relearn regardless of which side of the discussion I am on, it has been very "enlightening" - especially when looking at some of the sites recommended. I am in the hobby to have a piece of living art and have a hobby that is not only challenging but rewarding. There are many barriers to entry - and again discussions like these provide me with things to think about.

I find the term "buying blindly" misleading, only in that my reference point as mentioned, was rooted in what I considered pretty good research.

 

[j_mazzy]

If mucho had a way to PM him, I'd be begging for some colonies. his pics are amazing.

 

[reefwars]

What I will say is that the prices were all similar, whether I looked online or at LFS. Bare in mind I am very new to the hobby, so I have no point of "historical" reference or friends that are into the hobby. I joined forums to learn, make mistakes and relearn regardless of which side of the discussion I am on, it has been very "enlightening" - especially when looking at some of the sites recommended. I am in the hobby to have a piece of living art and have a hobby that is not only challenging but rewarding. There are many barriers to entry - and again discussions like these provide me with things to think about.

I find the term "buying blindly" misleading, only in that my reference point as mentioned, was rooted in what I considered pretty good research.

Oh well in that case I apologize I thought there was an issue with your purchase , seems you researched and bought something you thought fair

 

[Peter Eichler]

This whole thing is kind of silly... Yeah, there are some shady sellers out there, but there are also corals out there that are absolutely worth the high prices due to supply and demand. Can anyone in the thread name someone that has actually gotten rich selling corals, or even makes a solid six figure living for that matter.