TheFWC at Macna

[AquamanE]

Additionally- over the next few months, local clubs will have a multitude of frag swaps happening.

Jeff- you have been the coordinator of this for years, and have done a great job.

How does this affect frag Swaps now that FWC has taken notice of the hobbyist in FL>?

Most hobbyist dont have receipts. they buy from other locals and grow that stuff. How would they stand if FWC shows up at a local frag swap?

 

[jdhuyvetter]

Since this debate started, I sent an email to FWC requesting a definition of hobbyist (better than the email excerpt I previously posted). This email was forwarded to someone I had been dealing with at DOACS last time it came up. She emailed me with basically the same response as 3 years ago. Not sure if they are being intentionally vague, not prepared to deal with it just yet or just want to stay out of it as FWC is the enforcement agency, not DOACS.

FWC does have a directors meeting coming up in November in Fort Lauderdale. This is open to the public and proposed rule changes are open for public comment. However, there are no rules on the agenda for November that pertain to the reef hobby.

There is a directors meeting in Fort Myers in June, 2014. Agenda is not posted. I'd love to see if we can get two items on the agenda for next year. 1: Definition of hobbyist and 2: apply the same collection rule that we have for gorgonians and sponges to zoanthids and coralimorphs (we currently can obtain up to 1 inch of rock substrate for sponges and gorgonian and none for zoanthids and coralimorphs - which in my opinion causes harm to the animal)

As far as the swaps, this is the response I got last week:

Jeff,

If you plan to raise and sell your aquaculture products on a consistent basis, you would be considered a commercial aquaculture business and would require an Aquaculture Certificate.

Based on a previous conversation I had with her, if you go to 1-2 swaps a year, you are not commercial. In my case, with 700 gallons of SW and going to 4-5 swaps per year, I am still considered a hobbyist as I am not selling to stores or on the internet on a regular basis. (However, to me, $100/year for an aquaculture cert is not an issue. I've had mine for 2+ years). The inspector that comes to my house does not consider me commercial either. But, he understands/appreciates why I have an Aq Cert.

 

[jdhuyvetter]

The most interesting thing, to me, about this whole exchange is that FWC is the agency that has enforcement authority, yet they defered my question to DOACS. DOACS has no enforcement powers or rule making authority (as FWC does). FWC could easily state. "A hobbyist is considered....", but they won't.

I really don't think they are ready to deal with us as a group. When the FWC Marine Biologist was at my house and then at the frag swap she was amazed at how far the hobby has advanced. Their main focus is protecting Florida's wildlife and the vast majority of the hobby is IndoPacific (for now, this works in our favor). Since nobody was aquaculturing Carribean corals and fish for the aquarium trade, they pretty much ignored the hobby (from a land based aquaculture perspective, not a collecting perspective). Obviously, live rock aquaculture and marine life collecting has been on the radar. As the hobby continues to progress and we are beginning to see more and more aquacultured native corals, I suspect this will change over the coming years.

 

[Lacy]

oops

 

[liverock]

almost....

almost....

Definition of hobbyist and 2: apply the same collection rule that we have for gorgonians and sponges to zoanthids and coralimorphs (we currently can obtain up to 1 inch of rock substrate for sponges and gorgonian and none for zoanthids and coralimorphs - which in my opinion causes harm to the animal)

Not quite accurate...the one inch substrate in circumference applies only to the bases of sponges....only apples to the line drawn off egmont key out due west and north...anything south of egmont..no substrate allowed on sponges... ....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com
www.itzalodge.com

 

[jdhuyvetter]

I stand corrected

 

[liverock]

I stand corrected[/QUOTE

There are so many laws, is very hard to interpolate location and applicable limits.

I was part of the advisory committee that formulated this rule...the only reason we got to have a base on sponges off the west coast was that there was already a 'line' drawn pertaining to sponges in the regs...and the ornamental marine life collectors had a history of collecting sponges with small bases attached here on the west coast......but that line original was drawn for traditional sponge fisherman, as in the Greeks sponge industry.....that line from egmont out says "sponges may not be collected by diving, but must be hooked" south of this line. Thus you cannot dive for wool or sponges of the like south of egmont, must be taken from the surface.

I am not sure of the law on bases for gorgonians south of this line as this was many years ago and I don't collect gorgonians down there.

However you can dive for ornamental marine life sponges south of this line....not to confusing is it...... LOL

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com
www.itzalodge.com

 

[jdhuyvetter]

Part of the reason I'd love to see it changed. Way too confusing. Wouldn't it be nice to have one standard apply to all rules?! I'm sure it would make life easier on the enforcement guys too.

 

[liverock]

Part of the reason I'd love to see it changed. Way too confusing. Wouldn't it be nice to have one standard apply to all rules?! I'm sure it would make life easier on the enforcement guys too.

Sounds good....but will never happen, as the Keys is a Marine Sanctuary and one thing they do not go for is removal of substrate. It was pulling teeth when we got them to allow the itty bitty amount of substate on ricordias using the 'flexible' paint scraper. Jeff Turner walked across the street from the meeting that day and got a sample of each paint scraper Home depot had......and we got them to fly with the 'flexible' one.....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com
www.itzalodge.com

 

[liverock]

The most interesting thing, to me, about this whole exchange is that FWC is the agency that has enforcement authority, yet they defered my question to DOACS. DOACS has no enforcement powers or rule making authority (as FWC does). FWC could easily state. "A hobbyist is considered....", but they won't.

I really don't think they are ready to deal with us as a group. When the FWC Marine Biologist was at my house and then at the frag swap she was amazed at how far the hobby has advanced. Their main focus is protecting Florida's wildlife and the vast majority of the hobby is IndoPacific (for now, this works in our favor). Since nobody was aquaculturing Carribean corals and fish for the aquarium trade, they pretty much ignored the hobby (from a land based aquaculture perspective, not a collecting perspective). Obviously, live rock aquaculture and marine life collecting has been on the radar. As the hobby continues to progress and we are beginning to see more and more aquacultured native corals, I suspect this will change over the coming years.

This is a grey area also.....the FWC does not make the rules, they enforce them....the Marine Fisheries Commission with is now part of the FWC makes the rules, even though if you read below, is not written correctly "The FWC' makes the rules...more stuff that needs reworded...as is not the FWC the enforcement body, but the Commissioners that make the rules.

The Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission, simply known as the FWC, is responsible for managing fish and wildlife resources for their long-term well-being and the benefit of people.

The FWC creates the rules for protecting Florida's fish and wildlife. It consists of an unpaid seven-member board of commissioners. Commissioners are appointed by the governor and approved by the senate. They are advised and guided in their decision-making by scientists, law enforcement officers, and other experts, who are among the more than 1,800 employees of the FWC.

The FWC came into existence on July 1, 1999. It was created by Constitutional Amendment 5, which was approved by Florida voters during the 1998 general election. The agency is a combination of employees from the former Game and Fresh Water Fish Commission and Marine Fisheries Commission, and elements of the Florida Department of Environmental Protection, including the former Florida Marine Patrol.

The FWC is headquartered in Tallahassee, with five regional offices located throughout the state to serve its citizens.

 

[jdhuyvetter]

Sounds good....but will never happen, as the Keys is a Marine Sanctuary and one thing they do not go for is removal of substrate. It was pulling teeth when we got them to allow the itty bitty amount of substate on ricordias using the 'flexible' paint scraper. Jeff Turner walked across the street from the meeting that day and got a sample of each paint scraper Home depot had......and we got them to fly with the 'flexible' one.....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com
www.itzalodge.com

I did the same thing when FWC's marine biologist was at my house. Showed her a fully encrusted plug of zoanthids and asked her how to get 5 off of the plug without damaging the animal. She agreed it was not possible. Especially if you were trying to do it while snorkeling or diving.

 

[jdhuyvetter]

Also, we are basically in agreement. I have just oversimplified things in my post regarding the two agencies. As you clearly stated above the rule making commision is part of FWC and they do have the constitutional authority to change the rules. FDEP and specifically, DOACS does not. Thus FWC is the rule making and enforcement agency. I agree that the commision, while part of the FWC is somewhat autonomous as the are Governor appointees.

The main point I was trying to make is that while DOACS may issue the Cert of Authorization, FWC enforces it and has the authority to make or change the rules regarding that enforcement. Therefore FWC is the agency we need to address (with as much help as we can get from DOACS) regarding any hobbyist enforcement and/or interpretations.

And, unfortunately, I agree that it will probably never happen (regarding the collecting rule change). However, it does not hurt to try.

 

[liverock]

Also, we are basically in agreement. I have just oversimplified things in my post regarding the two agencies. As you clearly stated above the rule making commision is part of FWC and they do have the constitutional authority to change the rules. FDEP and specifically, DOACS does not. Thus FWC is the rule making and enforcement agency. I agree that the commision, while part of the FWC is somewhat autonomous as the are Governor appointees.

The main point I was trying to make is that while DOACS may issue the Cert of Authorization, FWC enforces it and has the authority to make or change the rules regarding that enforcement. Therefore FWC is the agency we need to address (with as much help as we can get from DOACS) regarding any hobbyist enforcement and/or interpretations.

And, unfortunately, I agree that it will probably never happen (regarding the collecting rule change). However, it does not hurt to try.

Never give up.....back in 1999 I had to appear...many times before the newly formed Commission and get the law changed that would allow me to posses any and all corals that were growing on the cultured rock......and allow me to posses them and sell them......last trip was with an attorney, from Tampa to Naples....and got them to agree with changing the law.

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com
www.itzalodge.com

 

[AquamanE]

So we continue to discuss collection, and NOT what this thread is about...the hobbyist and vendors.!!

I respect both of your opinions Jeff, and Richard.

But again- This is about hobbyists, and vendors, NOT the DIVERS!!!!!!!!!!

As we have more and more events in Florida, what should the hosting clubs tell their vendors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

[liverock]

So we continue to discuss collection, and NOT what this thread is about...the hobbyist and vendors.!!

I respect both of your opinions Jeff, and Richard.

But again- This is about hobbyists, and vendors, NOT the DIVERS!!!!!!!!!!

As we have more and more events in Florida, what should the hosting clubs tell their vendors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The laws......

 

[jdhuyvetter]

Eddie, they are sort of linked. The discussion about collecting is about hobbyists. Although, not about vendors per se. However, the discussion about who has enforcement authority and constitutional authority to make/change rules is very much pertinent to vendors at frag swaps. We need to get DOACS and FWC to agree on and publish (either in FAQ's or better yet in the statutes) what a hobbyist is considered and what a commercial vendor is considered. As it stands right now, DOACS doesn't really care about the once or twice a year frag swaps that our respective clubs put on. Niether does FWC, but they are starting to take notice. MACNA and local frag swaps are a different animal. With one or two exceptions, most everyone at MACNA is commercial. They either have a store front, have their own website or consistently sell on ebay. That one is easy. Frag swaps are different. You have a lot of guys like me that could produce enough frags to sell on ebay every week, but just don't want to fool with it. My set up is at my house and I only sell to local club members or at frag swaps. DOACS considers me a hobbyist. But, an individual officer at FWC might not. Hence why I think all the Florida clubs need to continue to push for a definition that all parties are in agreement. FWC may not have an issue with swaps today, but one day I think they might.

As for what we should tell our vendors, I think Marvin is on the right track about the meeting. For the balance of this year, I don't anticipate any issues from FWC. But, then again, I told you I did not think FWC was going to show up at MACNA. Missed that one!

I hope my answer help to clarify things. After all, how clear is mud anyway?

 

[AquamanE]

Eddie, they are sort of linked. The discussion about collecting is about hobbyists. Although, not about vendors per se. However, the discussion about who has enforcement authority and constitutional authority to make/change rules is very much pertinent to vendors at frag swaps. We need to get DOACS and FWC to agree on and publish (either in FAQ's or better yet in the statutes) what a hobbyist is considered and what a commercial vendor is considered. As it stands right now, DOACS doesn't really care about the once or twice a year frag swaps that our respective clubs put on. Niether does FWC, but they are starting to take notice. MACNA and local frag swaps are a different animal. With one or two exceptions, most everyone at MACNA is commercial. They either have a store front, have their own website or consistently sell on ebay. That one is easy. Frag swaps are different. You have a lot of guys like me that could produce enough frags to sell on ebay every week, but just don't want to fool with it. My set up is at my house and I only sell to local club members or at frag swaps. DOACS considers me a hobbyist. But, an individual officer at FWC might not. Hence why I think all the Florida clubs need to continue to push for a definition that all parties are in agreement. FWC may not have an issue with swaps today, but one day I think they might.

As for what we should tell our vendors, I think Marvin is on the right track about the meeting. For the balance of this year, I don't anticipate any issues from FWC. But, then again, I told you I did not think FWC was going to show up at MACNA. Missed that one!

I hope my answer help to clarify things. After all, how clear is mud anyway?

Jeff- Thanks for bringing this thread back to the hobbyist/potential frag swap vendor. Thats all i was hoping would come out of this thread. :hmm4::worried: