TheFWC at Macna

[Lacy]

Jeff thanks so much for all your hard work. I remember when this was going on and you put a lot of time into it. I am glad that the FWC was willing to work with you and the hobbyist since we were not really growing corals like we do now when those laws were passed back in the day. Things change and sometimes the laws need to change also. I am glad the FWC realized this. What would hobbyist do after the corals get to big for the tanks? Changing the laws helped the hobbyist not to be doing illegal things, but I also think it helps the reefs. Less corals are harvested since the same ones are grown and frags are sold, traded and given away.

Liverock do you work for the FWC?

 

[marke]

At MACNA Fort Lauderdale, it is my understanding that one of the vendors filed a complaint. Unfortunately, I was not there on Sunday when this happened, so I really don't know all the facts. You did not miss anything Sunday. They were polite and informative. Question as to you statement above. How does someone file a complaint? Why would someone do this? Who would do this?

 

[billsreef]

As to how to file a complaint with the FWC, one just needs to pick up the phone. As for who and why, unless that person (assuming this is actually more than just a rumor) says something, we'll never know. FWC isn't going to say.

 

[jimbo78]

Jimbo- The FWC is fully deputized in these matters to enforce both State and Federal laws. No warrent was necessary.

I get that. But my question is can they just enter anywhere they want with their badge. Free entrance to MACNA, Disney world, superbowl. Its my opinion that if they didn't have enough a warrant then they shouldn't have been granted access.

 

[AquamanE]

I get that. But my question is can they just enter anywhere they want with their badge. Free entrance to MACNA, Disney world, superbowl. Its my opinion that if they didn't have enough a warrant then they shouldn't have been granted access.

Jimbo you say "I get that". Then ask again, LOL :love2:

We are a non for profit organization. A bunch of volunteers with no legal departments backing us up. How else would we respond to a bunch of State agents with big guns?. We had nothing to hide.

BTW- There was a total of approx 7 agents there. Some in uniform, some in plain clothes.

Why would we fight it? FMAS had no intention of breaking any laws, and expected vendors to do the same.

 

[AquamanE]

Guys- I had a room at the hotel overlooking the ocean. I could see the different reefs. The one 100 yards away from the beach (we beach dive this all the time) and the one 1 mile in, a third exists one mile east of that.

I think our State is in a different position than many other States that dont have live reefs in their coasts. There are laws in Florida that dont exist in other States. Do you think Iowa had this concern?, Michigan, Ohio, Nebraska, Etc.


We literally have live reefs a few feet from where this event was held. FLorida Wildlife has rules that dont relate in any way to other places in the country. They where enforcing the laws of Florida. AGAIN, they where very cordial, and professional. What else could we ask for.

 

[jimbo78]

Jimbo you say "I get that". Then ask again, LOL :love2:


Why would we fight it? FMAS had no intention of breaking any laws, and expected vendors to do the same.

Simple if you don't stand up for your rights you will end up without any.

 

[billsreef]

Were you going to pay Eddie's and Marvin's legal fees?

 

[jimbo78]

Were you going to pay Eddie's and Marvin's legal fees?

For what no granting access to a private event. That's not against any law.

 

[betamed]

Simple if you don't stand up for your rights you will end up without any.

seems like cooperation has lead to positive changes and a better understanding of both sides regarding the others expectations. Lock them out and the assumption would be we're doing something wrong

 

[AquamanE]

For what no granting access to a private event. That's not against any law.

Jimbo- I appreciate your passion. I would normally agree with you, but what would have been different? Why would we deny access to an event we had nothing to hide about.

They came, they educated, and left. What else could we ask for?

 

[nivram]

I've been meaning to post on this thread but have been busy with non-fish tank related projects since MACNA. As Eddie stated FWC was trying to educate the vendors as well as the club. I expect to have more dialog with them in the next couple months. And who knows, maybe have them speak or at least be available for Q&A at a future monthly meeting.

Jeff, we can't thank you enough for being the voice of aquarist.

Regarding why we "let" FWC into MACNA. They are the enforcement Agency and well, as Eddie stated we had nothing to hide. In fact I can assure you acting ignorant or being a butt about the situation would have ruined a lot of people's day if not worse. Bottom line is this, these guys were just doing their job. They were fully aware of MACNA well beyond the day they chose to visit us. They tried not to be intrusive. In fact many were in plain clothes. After talking with the Captain, I couldn't find any of the officers.

If you were offended FWC was at our event, there's not much I can do about that. I can pretty much promise you this won't be the last you'll see or hear from them at any event where livestock is being sold. If our hobby gets more restrictive, I'd count on seeing them even more. If you are selling corals on a "commercial" level. best to have your stuff together.

I'll get off my soap box and leave here with one question. Would you come to a meeting if we arranged one where FWC present and you could ask all the questions being posed in this thread? I don't want to waste their time nor ours in setting something up and no one shows up.

Marvin
FMAS PRESIDENT

 

[billsreef]

For what no granting access to a private event. That's not against any law.

An event on property not owned by the club. They also could just have paid out of pocket, saved their receipts for reimbursement, and simply come in undercover. Had Eddie and Marvin tried to keep them out, it's a fairly sure bet that they would have needed to prove that right in court. It's also a sure bet such a refusal would have triggered a harsh look at our hobby in the light that "we have something to hide", instead of "we can work with these hobbyists".

They came, they educated, and left. What else could we ask for?

Exactly. Can't get better than that.

 

[jdhuyvetter]

Would you come to a meeting if we arranged one where FWC present and you could ask all the questions being posed in this thread?

I would.

As for the other comments, it is absolutely in the Florida clubs best interest for FWC to come to MACNA. They get to see first hand how far the hobby has come. They get to see how much aquaculture is going on and how much the future holds. FWC has the constitutional authority the write/change the rules that govern many aspects of our hobby. The best thing we could do is show them the best of the hobby and that would be at events like MACNA. I would sincerely hope that any future MACNA's held in Florida would invite DOACS and FWC to the event. The more they see about the good side of the hobby, the more they are willing to work with us (as opposed to against us).

 

[jimbo78]

An event on property not owned by the club. They also could just have paid out of pocket, saved their receipts for reimbursement, and simply come in undercover. Had Eddie and Marvin tried to keep them out, it's a fairly sure bet that they would have needed to prove that right in court. It's also a sure bet such a refusal would have triggered a harsh look at our hobby in the light that "we have something to hide", instead of "we can work with these hobbyists".



Exactly. Can't get better than that.

I'd would be completely fine if they had paid. The fact that they were granted free access is where the problem lies you me. I have nothing to hide, but there is no chance in hell I'd let officer's into my house without a warrant.

 

[liverock]

I would.

As for the other comments, it is absolutely in the Florida clubs best interest for FWC to come to MACNA. They get to see first hand how far the hobby has come. They get to see how much aquaculture is going on and how much the future holds. FWC has the constitutional authority the write/change the rules that govern many aspects of our hobby. The best thing we could do is show them the best of the hobby and that would be at events like MACNA. I would sincerely hope that any future MACNA's held in Florida would invite DOACS and FWC to the event. The more they see about the good side of the hobby, the more they are willing to work with us (as opposed to against us).

Great post and interpretation of what the FWC is doing. The FWC is working for us, not against us. Without somebody to enforce the laws, there would be resource genocide.

Have you ever seen the FWC rules book....it is over two inches thick. They have so much to encompass on the enforcement of Florida's laws it is a pretty mind boggling task.

I was recently at NOAH's shark identifying class and the FWC was present also. We had a question come up about a law that was on the books, and the officer started looking for the answer...took about thirty minutes but he did find it in the regs. That is how complicated their job is enforcing/interpreting the multitude of laws on the books.

I think some practical thinking and use of restraint when delving into the hobbyist element of the laws in Florida would go a long way in your position if something was to come up with a hobbyist/enforcement issue.

You can be sure if you made a sign that said "aquacultured corals by Joe hobbyist for sale" and parked across the street from an FWC office with the trunk of you car open, you would run into an issue very quickly. On the flip side, using common sense and being a hobbyist and not a commercial operation, you may be able to coexist with the Laws of Florida and enforcement by the FWC.

And no I do not work for the FWC, but I sure do help fund the operation with the thousands of dollars in permits we have to obtain every year. :lol2:

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com
www.itzalodge.com

 

[tmulrney]

I would come to a meeting with FWC.

 

[billsreef]

I'd would be completely fine if they had paid. The fact that they were granted free access is where the problem lies you me. I have nothing to hide, but there is no chance in hell I'd let officer's into my house without a warrant.

The only thing that would have changed with making them pay to gain entry would have been a change in their attitude. Instead of just doing the respectful educational thing they did, it would have likely been ticket writing enforcement action. Considering this was basically a public venue, not any of our personal houses (in which case I'd be in full agreement with you), I think Eddie and Marvin made the best decision possible.

 

[jimbo78]

The only thing that would have changed with making them pay to gain entry would have been a change in their attitude. Instead of just doing the respectful educational thing they did, it would have likely been ticket writing enforcement action. Considering this was basically a public venue, not any of our personal houses (in which case I'd be in full agreement with you), I think Eddie and Marvin made the best decision possible.

I would have been completely fine with them writing tickets instead of warnings. If your selling stuff you should know the laws and not need to be educated of them.

I makes me sad to think that so many people think our rights are meaningless if you're not doing anything wrong

 

[Lacy]

Simple if you don't stand up for your rights you will end up without any.

I would never see this as losing any rights. If they were to come to your house without a warrent and dragged you out, then I would see something like this as losing your rights. They simply came to check things out. I don't really see this any different than if I was fishing or collecting at the beach and they stopped to see what I was up to. Had this happen and I didn't mind at all.

I would have been completely fine with them writing tickets instead of warnings. If your selling stuff you should know the laws and not need to be educated of them.

That sounds a bit harsh. I can understand that vendors who live in Florida should know our laws. I can also understand why a lot of vendors didn't know about all the paper work they needed. They have probably sold tons of livestock in other states and never even heard about such requirements that Florida has. We have such rules to protect our state's waters and reefs which probably only a couple of other states also have.

As for them paying to get in, I don't see why they should or would need to. They were doing their job. I also don't see why this is such an issue. I highly doubt any of them were doing any shopping. Also, if they had to pay then it would probably end up being the taxpapers that really pay.

I say let them come and see what our hobby is all about. Like I said before when the laws were written us hobbyist were not actively growing corals and breeding fish. Since there has been such a huge success with this it is nice for FWC to learn more about us and hopefully can change some laws to benefit the hobbyist which in turn benefits consveration.

Have you possibly had a bad encounter with law enforcement?

I think it would be a great idea to have FWC be a speaker at a meeting. It would be interesting to hear what they have to say and for us to ask questions.

Jimbo for some reason your questions remind me of something from way back when. Years ago (many) I dated a Navy jet pilot. One day he was complaining about the random drug testing they did. He was so against it. He also thought it was violating his rights. I was shocked by his comments. As far as I knew he never did drugs and didn't even smoke. I never understood why people would be against these tests. If you have nothing to hide then whats the big deal? I see these rules as protecting us just like the FWC is trying to protect the reefs, etc.

I particularly like the random drug tests. How would you like to be a passenger on a plane with a drugged out or drunk pilot? So whose rights do these drug tests violate, the pilots rights or the rights of passengers who should be able to get on a plane and not have to worry about the condition of the pilots? My thought is that if someone doesn't want to get tested then they damn well shouldn't be flying any planes.
Serves my friend right since he has had to endure a life time of random drug tests. He is a Delta Captain.
It still annoys the crap out of me when pilots, doctors or others in such a position are against random drug tests. BTW hubby isn't one of them or he would get a big ear full. He does not care what they do with his pee. He doesn't need it anymore.

Ok, sorry for my rant. Jimbos questions reminded me of this.