This was an eye opener

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Here is an example of what I am talking about:

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/

If you look at the plot ""Global Annual Mean Surface Air Temperature Change"

You clearly see an upward trend from 1880 to 2000.

However, we KNOW that the global temperatures follow a cyclic (sinusoidal) trend over long durations.

Based on that plot, are we just on an upward slope and we are near the top?
Or are we truly on a linear slope & the temps are going to keep getting hotter?

The "historical record" CANNOT tell us.

Only the anthropological or the mineral records can tell us what the long term trends are.
BUT we cannot fit the Known Min & Max temperatures in Earth's past to this plot reliably.

We just dont have enough CALIBRATED data to say for sure.


I could go on and on about how the science instruments work on the NPOESS spacecraft and how calibration ( and data continuation ) is so important.

Stu
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15220313#post15220313 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stugray
Based on that plot, are we just on an upward slope and we are near the top?
Or are we truly on a linear slope & the temps are going to keep getting hotter?

The "historical record" CANNOT tell us.

Only the anthropological or the mineral records can tell us what the long term trends are.
BUT we cannot fit the Known Min & Max temperatures in Earth's past to this plot reliably.

We just dont have enough CALIBRATED data to say for sure.


There isn't anything in nature that is completely linear, so I wouldn't assume that if the temp shows signs of being cyclical that it's disproving CO2 forcing. If the models are correct, the mean temp will rise a certain amount and continue the sinusoidal wave pattern anyway.

It sounds like your issue is that you don't think that we've been able to calculate Earth's historical temperature to the required accuracy. Isn't that what uncertainty is for? Even with uncertainty taken into account, GW seems to be anthropogenic.

Also, as the bean pointed out, the models are based on physics, and the temps predicted by the models matches past temps, both measured temps and those calculated from the historical record. If you're worried about fitting measured temps into the context of historical temps, remember that we're most concerned with the change in temps, not necessarily the absolute temp of the past. At the very least, historical data will be calibrated to itself within it's own framework. If the physics models still match the change in temps of the historical record, which they do, it supports the predictions of the model.
 
This is all I am saying.

See how we can fit the data to two separate plots?

plots.jpg


The first plot says we will reach a local maximum soon and begin to cool
The second plot says we will just keep climbing....

Which one is correct? The answer - WE DONT KNOW YET.


HippieSmell,

Yes physics can predict many things ( usually simple things ), but you cannot prove the model is correct until you have enough data to "validate" the model.

I still argue we dont have enough data to validate the model.
If we had a valid climate model we could predict the weather more than 24 hours into the future.



ctenophors rule,

Sorry but "+1" in my book is like sitting next to the smart guy and constantly saying "YEAH! - What he said" It wont get you very far with educated types.

Stu
 
The answer is the top graph is correct, because it is still cyclical. What isn't known is when it will peak. The fact is that we are experiencing, and will continue to experience warming that is above what should be happening (yes, we would probably still be warming without humans). Again, this is based on the known effect that CO2 has on trapping heat. I don't know exactly how they calculated the models, but they're smarter than me. Hopefully the warming will offset the coming ice age until we have the tech to reverse it. It's a win win. :)

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15224452#post15224452 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by stugray
I still argue we dont have enough data to validate the model.
If we had a valid climate model we could predict the weather more than 24 hours into the future.
I argue that we do have enough data, as it goes back hundreds of thousands of years. Also, predicting the weather is a totally different beast than predicting long term climate. Like standard and quantum physics different. Related, yes, but different rules.
 
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Stu:

I see what you are getting at and it is valid point. The thing is they have models going back much further and they do typically show a cyclic pattern. In general the carbon runs this same cycling pattern with it. However there is a monkey in the gears now and carbon is raising to higher points than the normal cycle. IIRC it was that high once before, during a extended heating period but I could be wrong about that. What we can see from the models is that temp follows carbon, along with other gasses and there are albedo effect and lots of other factors. Probably factors we still do not know. Part of the issue here I think is people wanting proof beyond a doubt and it no longer to have some possibility for models being flawed. I think that it is not 100% proven but it is supported by the overwhelming majority of the evidence. I think if we waited to know there would be very little to be done about it by then. just my .02
 
Models need data.

What data can we put into the model to validate it?

What data can we put in that can predict the future?

We have almost exactly 20 years of "Calibrated data" ( I must emphasize the calibrated part ).

All the excitement is over a few degrees Celsius change in Climate...

So in my line of work to make a meaningful measurement you are supposed to have a measuring device at least 10X ( ten times ) better than the thing you are trying to measure.

To measure a temperature change of 5 deg C. , I need a measurement device that can read to 0.5 Deg C ( 1/2 a degree ) as a minimum.

Do we have global temperature data over the last 20,000 years that is "calibrated" to within 0.5 Deg C.?

NO

So we can play with models all we want, but the truth is we dont have ACCURATE data for more than a few years into the past.


Now, we can use "historical data" ( farmers almanac, farming data, etc. ) , but is that accurate to within 0.5 Deg C?

We can use "anthropological data" ( based on observations of bones & habits of humans from 10,000 years ago ).
Are THOSE accurate to 0.5 Deg C.?

Nowhere near that accuracy.....


WHY do we see such a change in temperature? - BECAUSE WE JUST STARTED LOOKING with instruments that are accurate enough to see the change!

Stu
 
but stu, how can you argue that the atmospheric co2 isn't anthropogenic?

since their have been experaments, with small rooms, where co2 was increased, and a directly related increase in temp was recorded, you must agree that the change in temp is anthropogenic, right?

the experaments prove what the theories suggest.

dont you feel that the fact that the rise in temp, corresponds to the rise in AACO2 is too large a coincident to ignore?
 
"but stu, how can you argue that the atmospheric co2 isn't anthropogenic?"

I am not arguing that. however....ONE volcanic eruption can easily spew more CO2 than humans make in 5 years.....

"since their have been experaments, with small rooms, where co2 was increased, and a directly related increase in temp was recorded,"

Sorry, but:

1 - that makes no sense. Increase in CO2 in a ROOM should NOT raise the temperature. What is the mechanism?

2 - Increased CO2 in the ATMOSPHERE ( CO2 is a greenhouse gas ) can hold in heat like a blanket. THATS what causes the increase in temps.



"dont you feel that the fact that the rise in temp, corresponds to the rise in AACO2 is too large a coincident to ignore?"

Maybe, but the Earth has been self-regulating for a few (3-4) Billion years.
Humans have been adding to the natural CO2 levels for about 100 years ( only ~50 in noticeable quantities ).
How can we possibly detect a trend that can contribute to the validity of a Climate Model with such a small number of data points.

As I pointed out earlier, the effect of Global DIMMING might be an even LARGER worry than global WARMING due to increased CO2.

No-one seems to be worried about the global dimming.......and we dont even know the mechanism.
Perhaps we should be increasing CO2 levels to reduce the risk of an imminent Ice-AGE.....

My opinion is we dont know YET.


I am not arguing that we do NOT need to track & monitor global CO2 levels and control the sources.

My main argument is:

The Earth's climate has been regulating itself for far longer than humans have been present ( through MUCH larger ecological effects than humans ) and it has always corrected itself.

We have only been watching carefully enough to make "Scientific" evaluations of the trends since satellites have been flying.

We have Calibrated & Continuous data for only about 20 years.

Stu
 
Sorry, but:

1 - that makes no sense. Increase in CO2 in a ROOM should NOT raise the temperature. What is the mechanism?

2 - Increased CO2 in the ATMOSPHERE ( CO2 is a greenhouse gas ) can hold in heat like a blanket. THATS what causes the increase in temps.

well stu i didn't think that i would be critisized for my wording,lol but i am sure you of all people will understand that i wasn't talking about a bed room, but a "containor" that is able to accurately simulate the earth atmosphere under increased co2 environments.

i understand what you are argueing, but how can volcanic eruptions and other phenomena both pertaining to nature and natural (?their is a diff, but its philosophical so doesn't realy matter) cause the steady rise in co2 levels that we have scene, and how is it that it correlates with the ammount of co2 humans are introducing to the atmosphere?

i think that no one is worried about global dimming because very few scientist believ in that, while 95% of scientist at a scientific conference( my memory fails me) believe in glkobal warming.

but i do see where you are coming from, no we can't be absolutely definative about it, but can we ever be?

i think that this whole things stems to predernatural vs. natural.

stu i am pming you. its nuthing bad, i just want to ask you a question that may explain a few things to me.
 
If we had a valid climate model we could predict the weather more than 24 hours into the future.
This is completely non-sequitur. Climate is long-term statistical trends. Weather is the statistical noise obscuring the trend. Climate models are not attempting to predict weather and weather models are not used to model the climate.

What data can we put into the model to validate it?
Almost 200 yrs of direct temperature measurement. Temperature reconstructions based on 800 thousand years of ice cores including borehole temperatures and O16/ O18 analysis, 5 million years of O18/ O16 analysis of foraminifera, 500,000 years from speleothem growth rates, 26,000 years of tree ring data, a few million years of fossil coral reefs and glacial deposits.... The list could go on.

What data can we put in that can predict the future?
The laws of physics and the relative influences and fluxes of forcings.

We have almost exactly 20 years of "Calibrated data" ( I must emphasize the calibrated part ).
No, we have several million years of calibrated data.

So in my line of work to make a meaningful measurement you are supposed to have a measuring device at least 10X ( ten times ) better than the thing you are trying to measure.

To measure a temperature change of 5 deg C. , I need a measurement device that can read to 0.5 Deg C ( 1/2 a degree ) as a minimum.
That is a convention of your line of work, not a universal standard. You can in fact measure changes smaller than the resolution of a single metric- a fact that many test kits for the hobby actually take advantage of. You simply use multiple methods to take the measurement.

If for example I have a thermometer that reads 100 +/- 3 deg and one that reads 97 +/-3 deg I know the actual temperature to +/-1.5 degrees. In theory, using just those 2 thermometers I could get a reading to 1/3 of the margin of error of either. I can also add more measurements and then run statistical analysis to determine the distribution of results and shrink the size of the 95% confidence interval.

Now, we can use "historical data" ( farmers almanac, farming data, etc. ) , but is that accurate to within 0.5 Deg C?
The global instrumental record is 159 yrs long and is accurate to within to 0.05-0.15 deg C.

I am not arguing that. however....ONE volcanic eruption can easily spew more CO2 than humans make in 5 years.
This isn't even close to true, and it's not hard to check either. All volcanoes combined pump out about 200 million tonnes of CO2. Fossil fuel combustion alone is responsible for about 27 billion tonnes a year. That's several orders of magnitude more than all of the world's volcanoes produce each year.

Factoid like this one reflect ideological arguments rather than skepticism and interest in the truth. Even if it was true it would be irrelevant to the issue. Natural sinks and sources of CO2 are roughly in equilibrium so unless there is a dramatic increase or decrease in vulcanism (much bigger than a single large eruption), the amount of volcanic CO2 being cranked out has almost no effect on climate.

As I pointed out earlier, the effect of Global DIMMING might be an even LARGER worry than global WARMING due to increased CO2.
Well it might be. And we also might all be destroyed by aliens tomorrow night. However, there is no evidence to believe either one is true. We have a pretty good idea that dimming was due to man-mad particulates- which we reduced. Since that reduction the trend has reversed. Other than wishful thinking, why should we assume that the trend will reverse again and fix our problem?

The Earth's climate has been regulating itself for far longer than humans have been present ( through MUCH larger ecological effects than humans ) and it has always corrected itself.
Well, I don't think anyone is concerned about the continued existence of the Earth. Global warming certainly won't affect that. However, human civilization hasn't had to deal with Earth's correction periods and a lot of them would be quite problematic to civilization as we know it. Yes, things will eventually return to normal in a few million years no matter how badly we screw it up, but in the interim things won't be very much fun for people.

We have only been watching carefully enough to make "Scientific" evaluations of the trends since satellites have been flying.

We have Calibrated & Continuous data for only about 20 years.
Neither of these statements make sense. We have continuous, calibrated data from proxies dating back several million years. We have calibrated and continuous data from direct measurements for about 350 years and continuous, calibrated global data for 150 years. Even the satellite record is 30 years old.

Beyond the confusion about the age of the records, why do you assume that satellites are the only scientific basis for trend analysis? Why do you believe satellites are more reliable records than surface observations?
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15255539#post15255539 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
This is completely non-sequitur. Climate is long-term statistical trends. Weather is the statistical noise obscuring the trend. Climate models are not attempting to predict weather and weather models are not used to model the climate.


Almost 200 yrs of direct temperature measurement. Temperature reconstructions based on 800 thousand years of ice cores including borehole temperatures and O16/ O18 analysis, 5 million years of O18/ O16 analysis of foraminifera, 500,000 years from speleothem growth rates, 26,000 years of tree ring data, a few million years of fossil coral reefs and glacial deposits.... The list could go on.


The laws of physics and the relative influences and fluxes of forcings.


No, we have several million years of calibrated data.


That is a convention of your line of work, not a universal standard. You can in fact measure changes smaller than the resolution of a single metric- a fact that many test kits for the hobby actually take advantage of. You simply use multiple methods to take the measurement.

If for example I have a thermometer that reads 100 +/- 3 deg and one that reads 97 +/-3 deg I know the actual temperature to +/-1.5 degrees. In theory, using just those 2 thermometers I could get a reading to 1/3 of the margin of error of either. I can also add more measurements and then run statistical analysis to determine the distribution of results and shrink the size of the 95% confidence interval.


The global instrumental record is 159 yrs long and is accurate to within to 0.05-0.15 deg C.


This isn't even close to true, and it's not hard to check either. All volcanoes combined pump out about 200 million tonnes of CO2. Fossil fuel combustion alone is responsible for about 27 billion tonnes a year. That's several orders of magnitude more than all of the world's volcanoes produce each year.

Factoid like this one reflect ideological arguments rather than skepticism and interest in the truth. Even if it was true it would be irrelevant to the issue. Natural sinks and sources of CO2 are roughly in equilibrium so unless there is a dramatic increase or decrease in vulcanism (much bigger than a single large eruption), the amount of volcanic CO2 being cranked out has almost no effect on climate.


Well it might be. And we also might all be destroyed by aliens tomorrow night. However, there is no evidence to believe either one is true. We have a pretty good idea that dimming was due to man-mad particulates- which we reduced. Since that reduction the trend has reversed. Other than wishful thinking, why should we assume that the trend will reverse again and fix our problem?


Well, I don't think anyone is concerned about the continued existence of the Earth. Global warming certainly won't affect that. However, human civilization hasn't had to deal with Earth's correction periods and a lot of them would be quite problematic to civilization as we know it. Yes, things will eventually return to normal in a few million years no matter how badly we screw it up, but in the interim things won't be very much fun for people.


Neither of these statements make sense. We have continuous, calibrated data from proxies dating back several million years. We have calibrated and continuous data from direct measurements for about 350 years and continuous, calibrated global data for 150 years. Even the satellite record is 30 years old.

Beyond the confusion about the age of the records, why do you assume that satellites are the only scientific basis for trend analysis? Why do you believe satellites are more reliable records than surface observations?


well, i was lookng but their aren't any smiley faces for, "in awe" and "bowing down"

green bean, you always anage to say exactly what i wanted to say 100X better.:) :) :)
 
greenbean36191,

That was one of the best counterpoint/rebuttals I have seen in a long time. Thank You.

It will take me quite a while to respond to the particulars in that.

I will respond to the last of the comment first ( as it is most fresh in my mind ):

"Neither of these statements make sense. We have continuous, calibrated data from proxies dating back several million years. We have calibrated and continuous data from direct measurements for about 350 years and continuous, calibrated global data for 150 years. Even the satellite record is 30 years old.

Beyond the confusion about the age of the records, why do you assume that satellites are the only scientific basis for trend analysis? Why do you believe satellites are more reliable records than surface observations?"

My comment meant that Until GOES, Quickscat, ICESat, DMSP, etc satellites took data we could not measure:
global temperature maps & profiles on a daily basis
ozone maps & profiles
cloud density & profiles
rainfall
surface winds
Polar Ice thickness
Earth radiation budget
Solar irradiance
CO2 Distribution

The list goes on...

The scientific community has been fed a deluge of data using these satellites ( some less than 10 years old ), and I KNOW that there are major revisions to the model going on now. ( and analyzing data & publishing takes years )



The temperature & CO2 level data you quote above definitely has merit for the climate model in the long term trending.

However I would need to know far more about the model before I could believe how it is accurate to greater than 5 deg C over a ~200 year period.

People are panicking about a period in Earth's history where temperatures have risen and humans have had an influence on the Environment.
I am just not convinced we are the CAUSE of the temperature rise.

Since the temperature cycles naturally, isnt it possible that the temps would have risen without our influence anyway??


I will try to respond to your other comments above, but I am clearly out of my league (happily) ;-)

Stu
 
Since the temperature cycles naturally, isnt it possible that the temps would have risen without our influence anyway??
Yes, eventually. In the grand scheme of things the planet is pretty cold at the moment and would likely get warmer on its own over the next few million years.

On the short term though, the current trend looks pretty solidly unnatural.

A few things that we know to be true-
CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Tyndall made direct measurements of this in the lab back in the 1800s.

CO2 is increasing and the rate of increase is accelerating. There have been spotty measurements of this going back well into the 1800s as well and continuous measurement since the 1950s.

About 1/3 of the current atmospheric CO2 and nearly all of the observed increased is from anthropogenic sources. This is known from the proportions of different C isotopes (C12/C13/C14) incorporated in the CO2, which leave a signature of their source. These measurements actually predate the continuous record of atmospheric CO2 by a few years.

Given just these few bits of information you would expect to see an increase in temperature with increasing greenhouse gas concentration unless there is some forcing that kicks in at the same time, with the same magnitude, but of the opposite sign. So far there is no such forcing known and the fact that models can recreate past trends without such a forcing suggests that there is none.

Not surprisingly, we do see that increasing temperature trend though and it also has a particular signature to it. The troposphere is warming while the stratosphere is cooling. That's important because that is what you would expect from warming due to changes in greenhouse gases, but is inconsistent with other sources of warming such as increased solar output.

Another way that the possibility of the current trend being natural is tested is to have the models run with all known natural forcings- solar variations, orbital changes, volcanoes, clouds, ice, etc. and then add in human forcings such increased CO2 output, decreased CO2 uptake on land, increased sulphate aerosols, etc. and compare the results to temperature records. Well, there's a major divergence the early part of the 1900s. The model using only natural forcings overestimates the temps for the first part of last century and then underestimates the rest of the trend. However, if you throw manmade forcings into the mix, you get an astonishingly good fit to observed changes for the full record, with the errors mostly slight underestimates of actual temperature. The tightness of fit suggests we have a pretty good grasp of the main players and the fact that you can't reproduce the trend with only natural forcings suggests that anthropogenic forcings are having a significant effect. You can see an example of this type of analysis here looking at just the instrumental record:
http://www.physics.unlv.edu/~jeffery/astro/earth/atmosphere/ipcc_tempmodel.jpg
 
:bigeyes:

How is this one for "awe?" I am certainly in over my head on this conversation...and it is my job to take things that are difficult to understand and break them down into more manageable, chunked info...YIKES!

That said, I was watching a documentary the other day (can't remember the channel) and it was about the reefs. It was really sad, during one part to see all the corals, colorless. They did offer hope though...these people found reef sharks (??) in a school of about 300 (after looking in several places for them) mating in an underwater canyon area. It was really something to watch! They explained that these reef sharks were an important part of the ecosystem and b/c of there presence, the reef, while not thriving, was coming back and supporting life once again.
 
well, muddy, i think that that is the lamest ending to a documentary i have ever heard.

the reefs are not going to be getting better any sooner. the reefs aren't coming back, their hosting what is probably a yearly meting ritual that will continue to exhist for a few decades after reefs are gone, big whoop! (all time frames are guesses)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15285132#post15285132 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ctenophors rule
well, muddy, i think that that is the lamest ending to a documentary i have ever heard.

the reefs are not going to be getting better any sooner. the reefs aren't coming back, their hosting what is probably a yearly meting ritual that will continue to exhist for a few decades after reefs are gone, big whoop! (all time frames are guesses)
(as are all of your conclusions)
 
i wasn't critiscising you( god i have to stop posting late at night)

just i have scene these awesome documentaries, that lead on as if their going to make a great point, and then they ruine it by putting the situation in a better light, or saying that the one thing thriving in the end, when lots of stuff died is proof of its recovery.

i hate it when that happens. thats all.

i am making a new july 2cnd resolution to stop posting while tired( 2 days no sleep....that means i shouldn't be posting today....make that july 3rd)
 
I think you need a bit more sleep! I never said you criticised me, just that your conclusions regarding the state of coral reefs were baseless. Nothing personal!
 
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