Thoughts on ich

[jcw]

Nothing to add except I'm another that has had ich in their tank. almost 2 years now. It has appeared on a tang three or so times but is gone in a week.

I do not have the interest nor do I feel it's in the best interest of the fish to pull them out and treat them for 4-6 weeks.

 

[srusso]

Nothing to add except I'm another that has had ich in their tank. almost 2 years now. It has appeared on a tang three or so times but is gone in a week.

I do not have the interest nor do I feel it's in the best interest of the fish to pull them out and treat them for 4-6 weeks.

Because it not, your right. The act of removing him can make things far worse. Test you tank make sure your water is clean. What are you feeding it? How often? What size tank? Is there a fish that is dominating it frequently?

Not saying you need to do this now... What I am saying is when you see that its a sign something isn't right. Observe, noticed the smallest of changes in the fish or environment. Its cheaper then testing the water all the time. Of course at first you need to test and observe for you learn the signs of different small or common issues what become big ones if large unchecked.

I am speaking generally, not directly to you or your practice. Just telling you what I do and what works for me...

 

[Mrs. Music]

After reviewing this thread I realised that my thoughts were getting mixed up between this thread and the old tank thread. Ha!

 

[Paul B]

Mrs. Music, my thouights are mixed all the time, you have no idea.

 

[ReefTeacher]

Can we make fish fell better? Remember when you were a kid, and you got a cold? Mom would give you chicken soup and you felt better. Did it cure the cold? No! but I think it helped because we felt comforted and warm. I wonder if some of the confusion about ich remedies does not lie in something like this. Garlic makes the food tasty, ginger too. Some of the herbal remedies may stimulate a comfy slime coat...etc. Do they cure ich? No more than chicken soup is an antiviral. Yet, it might help a fish get better.

I think putting a fish in a hospital tank is like sending someone to the hospital. If you have pneumonia and have trouble breathing, get to the hospital fast....with copper or hypo. But for a little sniffle, that is overkill. I use some of the herbals when I see fish flash, before white spots appear. They seem to help at that stage. Do they cure the problem? I don't know, because I am not even sure the fish has ich. But I have had bad luck with copper and I have had ich return after a full 8 weeks of hypo, so nothing is failsafe.

Paul, I am sure your tank is so comfy with wonderful aromas of home (the sea) that your fish can heal. Those of us inland must try to recreate that to the best of our ability. This may not mean that the pathogen is not present....any more than the common cold virus is not present in our homes. Still we spend a relatively small part of our lives sick...

is this crazy? Thoughts?

 

[Paul B]

is this crazy? Thoughts?

Of course not. I also feel that my tank is natural and maybe helps with the stress level of fish. They can hunt pods and many other things just like in the sea. Many times something spawns and they eat that. Their food is natural worms, clams and mysis which are tiny shrimp. Nothing foreign to them. They grow old with no sickness and they "seem" happy. They don't hide and many of them are on the lookout for a mate, always cleaning a nest. The age of the tank may have something to do with it. Or maybe there is just the right combination of corals where they don't compete with each other. I really don't know but I do know that fish do not like being in a quarantine or hospital tank. That puts a huge burden on a fish which most likely helps to cause a sickness rather than prevent one. If a quarantine tank could be large enough and natural enough that may solve a lot of problems.
Many times stress allows ich to overcome a fish and if we put that fish in a semi bare tank, we are stressing it as much as it will ever be stressed in it's life so if ich is present, it has an easier time infecting the fish.
I am relatively sure that if I took one of my healthy fish and put it in a quarantine tank, it would get ich.
Just my opinion.

 

[FoxInSox]

There is a lot of misinformation here. If there are any questions concerning Cryptocaryon, one should read:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/11/mini
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/12/mini
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/1/mini
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/2/mini
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/3/mini

This series covers exactly what the parasite is, how it hosts, treatments, immunities, et cetera.

A bit of distinction here is that conjecture and inductive reasoning does not make a sound scientific basis on how to treat living organisms that depend on us for care.

 

[ReefTeacher]

Fox,

I have read those articles and I understand them. As a matter of fact I am a chemist and understand exactly what science is. But Paul has advanced the topic far beyond that. That article presumes we want to rid our tanks of all pathogens. It is THAT assumption we take issue with. Howard Hughes tried that and went crazy. Rather Paul suggest a discussion on creating an evironment IN A REPRODUCIBLE WAY that promotes the natural healing of fish. Every knows we know who to cure ich...that is not news. But there is a good reason doctors do not give us antibiotics every time we have a cold, and there is a similar reason that Paul and I shy away from copper and hypo. I have used them.....I just don't use them every time. I also think you will find that people have more mixed results with the treatments than the advanced aquariust articles imply. Those treatment are harsh but effective. They have there place, but sometimes are overkill.

 

[Paul B]

Reef teacher, well put.
I just read that first article Fox in Sox posted (thank you for that by the way) I know of Terry and have consulted a little with him in the past.
But in that first article here is an excerp:

Dr. Harry W. Dickerson made the following statement pertaining to Cryptocaryon irritans in the Summer 1994 issue of Seascope: "œSurvival of the aquarium population requires the elimination of virtually all parasites, and treatments will not work unless carried through to completion. When treatments are applied with an understanding of the parasite's life cycle, the chances of success increase significantly." (Dickerson, 1994) "œThe difficulty in eradicating C. Irritans from marine aquaria and mariculture systems arises from the complexity of its life cycle, in particular the prolonged development of some tomonts and the consequently asynchronous excystment of infective theronts."(Colorni & Burgess, 1997). With an effective treatment and proper procedures, Cryptocaryon irritans can be eliminated from the aquarium and the fish.

And everthing he said was true in "1994" when the study was done. 1994 reefs were barely in existance and everything had ich. I myself used copper continousely but the article is in many cases dead wrong.

Yes of course all fish can be infected just like we can get everything but the chances of us in America contracting the Black Plague are slim. In the 1600s we could get it but not now. We learned a litttle about it, what causes it and how to prevent it.
As I said we don't want to convince anyone to stop quarantining, that is a proven method of keeping the paracite out of our tank but what if the presence of the paracite actually makes the fish healthier by boosting their immune system?
That came out of left field and no one ever proposed that did they?
We get inoculated for measles, polio, whooping cough and the flu. Those weakened pathogens help keep us free of those diseases. Maybe a weakened state of parasitic infection can help keep the fish free of paracites.
Remember, before you send hate mail, this is all theory and has absolutely no scientific basis. But what is much better than scientific basis is that many tanks, despite all the naysayers, go for years or decsdes with no infections. How does science explain that?
With a 60 day study 30 years ago.
One of the "scientists" who was involved in that study was Burgess. I know of his writings for many years and for almost all of those years he was involved in fresh water fish only. He is a well respected hobbiest, scientist and author but I disagree with many of his theories as I also disagree with many of Dr Schmecks theories. I have exactly as much experience as him and we are the same age but that does not make him or me right, just different. Everyone has theories and there is some "rightness" and "wrongness" in all of them.

 

[srusso]

Fox,

I have read those articles and I understand them. As a matter of fact I am a chemist and understand exactly what science is. But Paul has advanced the topic far beyond that. That article presumes we want to rid our tanks of all pathogens. It is THAT assumption we take issue with. Howard Hughes tried that and went crazy. Rather Paul suggest a discussion on creating an evironment IN A REPRODUCIBLE WAY that promotes the natural healing of fish. Every knows we know who to cure ich...that is not news. But there is a good reason doctors do not give us antibiotics every time we have a cold, and there is a similar reason that Paul and I shy away from copper and hypo. I have used them.....I just don't use them every time. I also think you will find that people have more mixed results with the treatments than the advanced aquariust articles imply. Those treatment are harsh but effective. They have there place, but sometimes are overkill.

Pesticide to pests...

"Whats sustainable about feeding chicken to fish?!"

Please watch this video, it explains my approach to reef keeping... And it explains why I dont have ich issues.

TED Talk: Dan Barber: How I fell in love with a fish

<object width="526" height="374"><param name="movie" value="http://video.ted.com/assets/player/swf/EmbedPlayer.swf"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true" /><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"/><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><param name="bgColor" value="#ffffff"></param><param name="flashvars" value="vu=http://video.ted.com/talk/stream/2010/Blank/DanBarber_2010-320k.mp4&su=http://images.ted.com/images/ted/tedindex/embed-posters/DanBarber_2010-embed.jpg&vw=512&vh=288&ap=0&ti=790&lang=en&introDuration=15330&adDuration=4000&postAdDuration=830&adKeys=talk=dan_barber_how_i_fell_in_love_with_a_fish;year=2010;theme=a_greener_future;theme=animals_that_amaze;theme=food_matters;theme=master_storytellers;theme=not_business_as_usual;theme=design_like_you_give_a_damn;theme=what_s_next_in_tech;theme=inspired_by_nature;event=TED2010;tag=agriculture;tag=biology;tag=environment;tag=food;tag=health;&preAdTag=tconf.ted/embed;tile=1;sz=512x288;" /><embed src="http://video.ted.com/assets/player/swf/EmbedPlayer.swf" pluginspace="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" bgColor="#ffffff" width="526" height="374" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" flashvars="vu=http://video.ted.com/talk/stream/2010/Blank/DanBarber_2010-320k.mp4&su=http://images.ted.com/images/ted/tedindex/embed-posters/DanBarber_2010-embed.jpg&vw=512&vh=288&ap=0&ti=790&lang=en&introDuration=15330&adDuration=4000&postAdDuration=830&adKeys=talk=dan_barber_how_i_fell_in_love_with_a_fish;year=2010;theme=a_greener_future;theme=animals_that_amaze;theme=food_matters;theme=master_storytellers;theme=not_business_as_usual;theme=design_like_you_give_a_damn;theme=what_s_next_in_tech;theme=inspired_by_nature;event=TED2010;tag=agriculture;tag=biology;tag=environment;tag=food;tag=health;&preAdTag=tconf.ted/embed;tile=1;sz=512x288;"></embed></object>

 

[Mrs. Music]

And lets not forget y'all. We are kindly, and intelligently discussing different approaches to keeping marine aquariums. As always, Paul, you remain polite and open minded. I love it. But I must say it is a bit disturbing that you feel comfortable disecting your pets when they pass, friend that is just weird. I am just kidding you! I am just busting your chops!
A friend, Briney Dave, pointed out once that problems often arise for newer reef keepers when they try to use bits and pieces from different aquarium keeping theories/practices without fully understanding the rational for why they work. I know I did that in the beginning. I saw a quip some where on here that a poster said they practice the dark side of the force reef keeping. I died laughing! I'll go with that for myself too! Especially with my summer time aquarium habits...must scoot! Summer is calling!

 

[billsreef]

Hey Bill, How are you doing?

I think I can answer that thing about solid scientific research. Most, if not all scientists don't have reef tanks. Marine biology does not qualify someone to keep a reef tank although it may help. I have a cousin who is a marine biology professor and for that title he had to SCUBA dive exactly once for 20 minutes or so. He has never even kept a goldfish much less a reef tank but by definition, he is an expert on them.

Actually I know quite a few marine biologists with reef tanks, some work actively in research, some in public aquariums, some in the aquarium industry Just being a marine biology professor does not make one an expert on goldfish or reef tanks by definition, and the good ones will admit that. In fact, some of them hire the likes of me to be their experts on the subject of fish culture and disease control in the lab

Remember, before you send hate mail, this is all theory and has absolutely no scientific basis. But what is much better than scientific basis is that many tanks, despite all the naysayers, go for years or decsdes with no infections. How does science explain that?

I've been keeping reefs since the mid 80's, and these types of discussion on ich have been going on at least as long in regards to fish in reef tanks. While the idea that ich won't be a problem in healthy well fed tanks is nice sounding idea, it's actually the minority of tanks were that seems to be the case...if the idea actually had good merit, the disease forum would be much quieter. Fact is, it's very easy to get a major break of ich in an healthy reef tank full of healthy fish...just need to introduce one fish with it. I've seen it happen myself, countless occasions.

 

[ReefTeacher]

srusso,

that video made my eyes mist over....I thought my fish wanted to comfort me, but they're just hungry again!

 

[FoxInSox]

Fox,

I have read those articles and I understand them. As a matter of fact I am a chemist and understand exactly what science is. But Paul has advanced the topic far beyond that. That article presumes we want to rid our tanks of all pathogens. It is THAT assumption we take issue with. Howard Hughes tried that and went crazy. Rather Paul suggest a discussion on creating an evironment IN A REPRODUCIBLE WAY that promotes the natural healing of fish. Every knows we know who to cure ich...that is not news. But there is a good reason doctors do not give us antibiotics every time we have a cold, and there is a similar reason that Paul and I shy away from copper and hypo. I have used them.....I just don't use them every time. I also think you will find that people have more mixed results with the treatments than the advanced aquariust articles imply. Those treatment are harsh but effective. They have there place, but sometimes are overkill.

First off it's not "Ich." It's Cryptocaryon Irritans. The parasite is biologically different than Ichthyophthirius and both are different Oodinium.

Your worries and many people's concern is that the quarantine process is likely to disturb the fish enough to cause complications along with your choice of copper usage/hyposalinity. If done correctly, this won't be an issue however most people are not willing to go through the rigor/expense of the correct process. Copper can be a harsh treatment depending on the type used, the dosage and other factors which could compound the issue. Typically I find people using poor filtration on quarantine tanks which as I stated above results in complications aggravated by copper treatments. Hyposalinity however has much of the same benefits without this problem. It expedites healing, it limits dehydration, etc. This is my choice method.

Also reasons why older/established tanks rarely if ever have an outbreak of the parasite even though it was present before is for one of two possible reasons. The first is that the genetic diversity of the parasite has met its end causing its own destruction. This of course takes quite a long process; several months if not a year or so and can be upset through the introduction of a genetically different variant. The second is through fish immunity which is a temporary result of exposure and not something that stays with teleost fish over long periods.

Crypt I. isn't a pathogen. It's a parasite. If there have been no outbreaks in an individual's tank for years, it is likely that option one has taken place, but placing a new fish within the tank sans quarantine is a bad idea and will likely result in renewed exposure.

 

[wayne in norway]

As well as the genetics of the fish, what about the genetics of the parasite. It comes in forms with big dots ,little dots, some are hypo resistant , some are weak, some are strong. It also I believe suffers from genetic senescence, so ones it's done I think 20 life cycles it's become a far weaker , inbred parasite.

Every few years a strong version of the parasite comes thro' the trade. A lot of fish coming into the UK this year seemed to be carrying a parasite that was particularly lethal. People who'd had a tank running a long time and were in the situation of 'they get a few spots' and brush it off this year ended up with fish soup.
Also, can you cross different wild weak strains and get offspring that are strong, and lethal.

The only study on wild ich occurence I've seen found it in small amounts (1, 2 parasites) on every fish examined, or near as...

 

[wayne in norway]

'I've been keeping reefs since the mid 80's, and these types of discussion on ich have been going on at least as long in regards to fish in reef tanks. While the idea that ich won't be a problem in healthy well fed tanks is nice sounding idea, it's actually the minority of tanks were that seems to be the case...if the idea actually had good merit, the disease forum would be much quieter. Fact is, it's very easy to get a major break of ich in an healthy reef tank full of healthy fish...just need to introduce one fish with it. I've seen it happen myself, countless occasions. '

I'd agree with that - dealing with the endless Crypt questions on the various forums is depressingly common and repetitive.

 

[CHSUB]

"The first is that the genetic diversity of the parasite has met its end causing its own destruction.'

could you explane this more? also i found your use of the word "sans" quite remarkable. the things you learn on RC!

 

[Paul B]

I watched the video. Interesting that you keep flamingo's in your tank to control ich. :lol2:

But I must say it is a bit disturbing that you feel comfortable disecting your pets when they pass,

Well today I disected quite a few clams, mussels and oysters with some flounder. Tomorrow I may disect some tuna with some more clams. I eat seafood almost every day. Love it, and I disect it before I eat it, especially the clams.

First off it's not "Ich." It's Cryptocaryon Irritans. The parasite is biologically different than Ichthyophthirius and both are different Oodinium.

Yes, I know it is and I am sorry for that. This should be a discussion of all diseases or at least parasitic infections. Ich is just easier to spell than Cryptocaryon Irritans. Either way some tanks including mine have no problems with either.
About different strains of paracites, I don't think that arguement carrys weight about them going through so many strains and then dying out. Maybe they do but today I added 15 gallons of water right from the Sound
(out by you Bill in Riverhead)
Last week I added another 15 gallons with no treatment. Two weeks ago I added a gobi and a rainsford gobi, this week I added 2 cardinals and a load of amphipods. I Do this all the time, all year, and have been doing it for forty years so something is wrong with the theories about ich, or crypto, oodinium etc. There has to be some reason why many tanks, I don't know how many but if even one tank has no problem with paracites "and" coincidently it is the oldest tank on here, there is something that we, scientists, or biologists do not know. Ich has to be in my tank and new strains have to be added all the time, every few weeks, sometimes every day. What is happening to these paracites? Where are they going? why are they not killing my fish?
That is what this thread is about, not the traditional knowledge which by the way has to be wrong for the reasons I just stated. Should everyone do what I do? Of course not, should we stop quaranting? of course not.
Should we try to figure out why ich does not always kill or even bother fish, of course we should. If we do not, we will be just like the people in the middle ages, just bury the people who are deformed by leprosy and quarantine them but don't try to figure out why some of the people never got it.:fun5:

Any how, I hope we didn't ruffle any feathers. I think this is an educational, entertaining discussion that, so far is going well.
Have a great night everyone. :wavehand:

 

[billsreef]

No ruffled feathers

Nothing wrong with the theories It's really quite logical that you can grab water from the Sound and not introduce parasite problems, for several reasons. One, parasites are typically found on the fish, or sometimes substrate...not generally in the water column for any length of time. Even when in the water column, the dilution factor really decreases the chances to very slim for you to be getting parasites in your collected water In terms of Cryptocaryon or Amyloodinium, those are also tropical diseases, so again not so likely you'll encounter them in the water column of LIS.

BTW, I also recall you talking to me in the past about having an ich outbreak in your tank a couple of years ago. So I don't think the "no problems with parasites" quite holds up.

 

[ReefTeacher]

Fox,

"Ich" is colloquial....I can use the Latin too...I've read the Aeneid in the original....I just feel it's pretentious.

I really don't think you understand my worries. I quarantine ALL my fish; but often not as long as some suggest. I have sometimes premedicated, and sometimes not, I go back an forth in the more than 30 years I have been keeping marine aquaria. Many species are quite sensitive to copper and some authors advise against using it with dwarf angels and butterflies. There have even been reports of adverse side effects in the natural fauna in the guts of tangs. So while it IS an effective cure; some of us would like to avoid it when we can. Again, I read the advanced aquarist articles the year they came out. But there has since been a great deal of conversation, even in the human realm, about whether ecosystems are better off completely without pathogens. As Paul says, it seems as though low level infections actually strengthen the immune system. I believe this to be true with humans, frogs, fish, corals elephants, etc.

BTW when did the categories of pathogen and parasite become mutually exclusive? Ich (of course....I mean crypt:rollface is a pathenogenic ciliated eukaryote no? Have categories changed that much since I was in school?