Thoughts on ich

[ReefCowboy]

I would like to ask for help here. Im not by any means making my own conclusions, and understand ich stages and the whole process of the disease.

I started a tank with a small yellow and hippo tangs that were completely healthy. My tank is a 48"x24"x16". The two fish were fine for a good while. I then after a month added the final one, a small clown, also healthy. Over the next days i noticed ich on the clown and hippo tang. As a big mistake, realized should have quarantined them. I was alble to catch the clown, treat it an it now is at a friends tank, healthy. Since i have an sps tank and tons of rocks, could not get the two tangs, so i let them stay in the tank.

After a month or so, i could not see ich on them. Today it has been 7 months and the two tags have grown, are healthy and eating.

Assuming the disease is in my tank and we all understand the satages of ich, why hasnt it come back/gotten worse, being that there are hosts in the tank for all this time?

Could the disease stay "dorment" or something similar? From my understanding when the new batch of the disease seeks for hosts after hatching/being attached on rocks/substrate, they come full force, but why i havent yet seen that?

Thanks

 

[Paul B]

I think I answered that in the first page of this thread. Your fish have built up an immunity as the paracite is obviousely still in your tank as it is in mine. With that paracite still in there, your fish will keep their immunity as long as you keep them in very good condition with the correct food, but if their health lapses for any reason like not the proper diet, heater breaking, power going off, Rap music, reality shows, or something like that, they could stay healthy forever. Maybe even healthier than if you had a tank that never had ich in the first place.
As I look back through this thread I am sorry I ever started it because this was going to be my last ich thread. I realize the majority of people will disagree with me and that is perfectly fine. That is also why there are so many ich threads even though the majority of people quarantine. As I have said numerous times, If you want to quarantine, thats fine, but keep your fish in breeding condition and they will not get ich, "If" they were exposed to the paracite in the first place so the fishes immune system can recognize the condition and deal with it.
There are so many people that say a tank that does not quarantine is a time bomb. I say if you quarantine everything, that tank is a bigger time bomb because the fish don't have a natural immunity. I can put any fish I want in my tank no matter how much ich it has and even though that fish may die, the other fish will not get it. I have been doing this long enough and my tank is old enough and has been ich free longer than many members here have been alive so I can make that statement. If my tank is a time bomb, and if it crashes, it has had one heck of a run.
Fish obviousely can become immune from ich. At first I didn't think so and I even posted that a few times, but I changed my mind. probably everyone on here has been inoculated for Polio, and maybe the flu. Why do we do that? Can't we just stay away from sick people? Or it just healthier for us to become immune?
If we come up with a cancer immunity drug, would you take it or would you take your chances? Immunity in us and fish evolved over millions of years and it works very well as long as we, and fish are exposed to the organism that we want to be immune from. If we just let that natural system work, we, and our fish won't have a problem. Before I went to Viet Nam I was inoculated for diseases I can't even pronounce. It worked as I never got anything there.
But if you are the kind of person that feeds flakes and lettuce with some commercially available food and mix in some liquid vitamins, then you should quarantine everything as your fish will die of all sorts of things.
I never said it was easy for fish to become immune as they must be in breeding condition for that to happen. It does take a little work and I understand that a lot of people don't have the time or will to do that. Those are the people that post on disease threads.
People laugh at me for my theory about worms. If you don't feed live worms and your tank is older than mine, raise your hand.
Higher.
It is not that live worms are magical, but they are a whole food and the fact that they are live, for some reason that I don't know, it gets the fish into breeding condition. Maybe the worms immune system helps the fishes immune system or maybe fish and worms like the same music.
I never said I know why this happens but in over fifty five years of dealing with ich I have learned a few things.
I could not have 20 year old fish that are spawning in a tank that was never quarantined in 35 years if my theory was wrong. I doubt it is my good looks
(but it may be) I do give in that it could be something else in my tank as it is different than all other tanks on here, but I don't know. I believe it is the live food every day.
Virtually all my fish are spawning except the copperband. Why would they live so long and spawn if they were affected negatively by paracites?
Does anyone have a theory? You are invited to come here to make sure I really have a fish tank (but not all at once and take off your shoes)
You can see the birth certificate of my older fish. take water samples to look for ich. Have a beer (bring it yourself as I usually drink wine or Vodka)
I know all the quarantineing people on here are gritting their teeth and holding up little puppets of my fish sprinkling salt on them to make my fish get ich through VooDoo and I hope it works for you as in a few years I will take down this tank as I am getting old and may move to a smaller house or travel a lot, on my boat. ::bum:
But like it or not, these are my theories. Everyone is free to post their theories.
References:
Me :deadhorse1:

 

[Rybren]

Paul,

I hate it when you hold back. Why don't you tell us what you really think?

:ape:

 

[FlyPenFly]

After a month or so, i could not see ich on them. Today it has been 7 months and the two tags have grown, are healthy and eating.

Assuming the disease is in my tank and we all understand the satages of ich, why hasnt it come back/gotten worse, being that there are hosts in the tank for all this time?

Could the disease stay "dorment" or something similar? From my understanding when the new batch of the disease seeks for hosts after hatching/being attached on rocks/substrate, they come full force, but why i havent yet seen that?

Thanks

It should be pretty east to catch these guys in a fish trap if they're healthy and eating. You can then get a 20g long from petco right now for $20 and do a copper treatment or try your hand in the tank transfer method. Keep the tangs in the 20L for 4-6 weeks and your display will probably be ich free. And hey now you have a hospital/qt tank.

 

[Paul B]

Rybren, yes I know. I am fed up to here (my hand is under my chin) with ich theories. There are so many people that don't quarantine and have no ich, probably as many tanks that do have ich and quarantine. Quarantining is not natural as the quarantine tank is usually smaller than the regular main tank that is also small, so the quarantined fish is subjected to exactly the same stresses as when the fish got ich in the first place.
To me it is a no brainer. See that your fish are as healthy as they are in the sea, and go out to dinner and have a nice glass of merlot as they are protected, not just from ich, but almost everything. Again, I could say that as I still do not see diseases in my tank.
Yes I know the next poster is going to say that keeping fish in a tank is also not natural, and they would be correct. But if your fish are spawning, then they are "almost" as healthy as they were in the sea, but if your fish are not spawning or showing spawning jestures, they are not as healthy as they were in the sea because in the sea, all fish spawn all the time.
I realize I am on a spawning kick. As I said, I have been doing this a very long time, Yes even longer than the scientists who write papers on the ich life cycle that we all know precisely.
OK, I am going to have a Vodka, and it is only 9:30 am here. :smokin:

Bad theory. The reason people get sick in a hospital isn't because of sterility, it's because of all the germ infected sick people there

I actually agree with Bill here, which scares me. Hi Bill, you are missing all the snow and freezing rain here today.

 

[FlyPenFly]

This thread is full of fish sex.

Seriously though, when you consider some dwarf angels are predated to something like 10%, a nice healthy tank is kind of a permanent Club Med.

 

[Paul B]

This thread is full of fish sex.

Sex sells, what can I say?

 

[slgcmg]

Rybren, yes I know. I am fed up to here (my hand is under my chin) with ich theories. There are so many people that don't quarantine and have no ich, probably as many tanks that do have ich and quarantine. Quarantining is not natural as the quarantine tank is usually smaller than the regular main tank that is also small, so the quarantined fish is subjected to exactly the same stresses as when the fish got ich in the first place.
To me it is a no brainer. See that your fish are as healthy as they are in the sea, and go out to dinner and have a nice glass of merlot as they are protected, not just from ich, but almost everything. Again, I could say that as I still do not see diseases in my tank.
Yes I know the next poster is going to say that keeping fish in a tank is also not natural, and they would be correct. But if your fish are spawning, then they are "almost" as healthy as they were in the sea, but if your fish are not spawning or showing spawning jestures, they are not as healthy as they were in the sea because in the sea, all fish spawn all the time.



I completely agree with this post. I don't qt, but I keep a new fish in my sump for a week or so to make sure it is eating before placing in my dt. When I have added a tang, they will usually have a few spots, but they eat like savages and it goes away quickly.

I see people that qt a 5 inch tang or angel in a 20g tank for 10 weeks and claim they are doing the fish a favor.

 

[Paul B]

Slgcmg, thank you for agreeing. But remember, it is only an opinion. I don't have much against quarantining for certain reasons. I recently acquired a copperband butterfly for $10.00. It was that cheap because the store had a lot of them and they were covered in ich. Some of them were already dead or beyond help. I didn't want to put this fish directly in my tank. Not because I felt my other fish would get it as I knew from experience that they would not. But I wanted it to have a fighting chance. So I treated the fish in a separate tank for a few days with copper. The spots disappeared and I put that fish in my reef.
In a few days I had to remove him because my older, larger copperband beat the thing almost to death so I managed to catch him and give him away. I posted a thread about that fish on here and the person I gave it to also posted that the fish was doing well. I only treated that fish for a few days until the spots disappeared and he was eating, not nearly long enough to have him free of ich. Those paracites along with countless others are still in my tank.
The time bomb has been ticking for decades but the researchers can't tell me why my other fish are fine, better than fine as they are spawning. I think I could spawn copperbands if I had a large enough tank.

 

[slgcmg]

I think tank stability plays a big factor in the fishes ability to fight off ich. I've been in the hobby since 1999. Took a 4 year break, never had any issues wi ich in my prior tank. Have had a couple of battles in my current one though.

 

[Rybren]

Paul,

Speaking of sex...

It's a mixed marriage...

 

[Paul B]

That's what they are supposed to be doing, here is my watchman with her eggs.

 

[Rybren]

Hi Paul,

I'd love to get a mate for my YWG, but from what I've read, it's next to impossible to sex them. Some people will say that the female is grey and the male is yellow, yet others will say the opposite. People who have bred them have said that they've seen them change colours.

Any tips for picking out a second one?

Thanks

Oh, because I've been feeding blackworms, (frozen) I don't have ich either (had to keep this thread on topic)

 

[Paul B]

The females smell better, besides that, I can't tell. But the fish can.
I had three of them and two fought until one killed the other, they were males. The female spent most of her time in the bathroom, thats how I knew she was a girl.



This is one of them as a baby. She changed color when she got a little older.



But I looked at them every day for 10 or 12 years and they always looked the same to me.

 

[billsreef]

Many gobies can change sex, like clownfish and wrasses. So just get a smaller one as the second, and they should sort things out among themselves.

 

[Paul B]

OK, maybe Bill is right.

 

[Rybren]

Thanks for the info guys. Will give it a go.

Now, if I could only find a source for more blackworms...

A group of us got an order for the frozen ones from California, no one seems to be interested in doing it again and I really don't want to buy 12 packages for myself.

 

[Paul B]

I never even heard of frozen blackworms, but it is what it is.
Watchmans also do well on clams.

 

[Rybren]

Just found a source for frozen and freeze dried balckworms. Don't know how nutritious the freeze dried ones are. I'll have to place an order and give them a try.

http://aquaticfoods.com/BlackwormFarmM.html

 

[Paul B]

I would stay away from anything freeze dried.