Thoughts on ich

[tmz]

You:
Ich in itself is not good but the fact that it keeps annoying the immune system of my fish, like it does in the sea makes it my friend.


Me:
There it is . Ich is your friend. Failing to take measures against it will help it grow in many tanks of those who deveop that affinity or acceptance. Ich is a killer.


You:
I agree with some of that that, garlic is useless as are potions or half measures (whatever that is)


"Without facts or data". Lets discuss that. Scientific studies last for how long? A couple of months or until they run out of funds.

So I feel my tank is much better than a scientific study as there is no scientific study that would last over 40 years.

Me:
There are many studies over the last 2 decades by very reputable scientists and researchers. Some cover long periods of time .They are serious works. Dismissing them is a mistake.


It's unfortunate you feel that way as some with little experience or mental discipline like the poster above will follow that lead as an excuse to avoid prevention and continue taking what looks like an easy road but most often leads to failure and carnage.



Now TMZ, my very old friend, as I said at the beginning of this thread. I am not advocating what I do.

Hey, I said I was older than you not that I was very old. I still have my hair.
Unfortunately some folks who have little to no experience who read your thread don't get that message. Worse they advise others in nonsensical ways and thus contribute to the advance of this parasitic plague


I'd rather talk to you about something else There aren't too many baby boomers from Long Island,my home ground is Queens as you know , that I get a chance to chat with anymore.

:dance:[/QUOTE]

 

[Paul B]

Having had upwards of 1,000 or so actively breeding marine fish at any given time in my old lab, I can tell you the only thing needed for a healthy breeding condition fish to get a parasitic disease is for someone break quarantine protocol and disinfection procedure of nets and cleaning equipment. Saying a healthy fish can't get a parasite like ich is akin to saying a healthy dog can't get fleas.

Bill, still in Florida? You missed this wonderful 6" of slush we got today on top of the foot of snow we had a few days ago.

As for ich Bill, I am still waiting to hear where all the ich went in my tank. I have not seen it in 35 years. Come to think of it, I have not seen a scientist in that time either.

Ich is a killer.

So is bubonic plague, flu, chicken pox, polio and a whole lot of other things which is why we can get inoculated for them which keeps us living with all those diseases and not be bothered by them. The shot is a weakened strain of ther disease which keeps us protected.

There are many studies over the last 2 decades by very reputable scientists and researchers. Some cover long periods of time .They are serious works. Dismissing them is a mistake

I don't dismiss them, give me one of their phone numbers so I can ask him what I asked Bill. I really want to know the scientific reason that their research is aparently flawed and unless they can tell me where ich goes in tanks that carry the paracite, I think they may have wasted their research money. Instead of trying to eradicate it, maybe they should put some research into finding out why so many tanks are not bothered by it.

There are many studies over the last 2 decades by very reputable scientists and researchers.

I am a serious aquarist with much more experience than that who has dealt with ich for almost 50 years "and" found a way to make it a non issue.

It's unfortunate you feel that way as some with little experience or mental discipline like the poster above will follow that lead as an excuse to avoid prevention and continue taking what looks like an easy road but most often leads to failure and carnage.

This I agree with. If you don't have my tank or experience you should quarantine as I would if I was starting a new tank. I get PMs all the time telling people that. Ich will certainly kill everything in your tank very fast, I never said It would not. But I can't just bury my head in the sand (or in my case gravel) when something does not make sense.
As you know, I have been at this a long time, probably longer than anyone here so my opinion carries a little weight, just a little. OK, a very little. But I am not someone who started in the hobby last Tuesday and came up with this after I put a cleanerfish in my tank to cure ich. I also didn't wake wake up one day and say, I think I will put some ich infected fish in my tank to see if I can prove scientists wrong. The next time you are standing near a scientist, maybe while he is eating a peanut butter and Jelly sandwich, ask him his opinion on why some tanks are not affected for decades or maybe never. He will probably say, that is an anomely as I get that all the time.
If even one tank out of thousands is not affected by the paracite for decades, not months, than should we not figure out why or should we just forget about that little inconvenience? If there was a family that never got cancer but they smoked 3 packs of cigarettes a day for 90 years don't you think it would be wise to figure out why rather than to just try to cure cancer. Sharks supposedly didn't get cancer (now they know they do even though most of them don't smoke) and they put plenty of money into trying to figure out why. They still spend money on curing cancer but wouldn't it be nice if we knew why some people especially heavy smokers don't get it.
You guys are getting the wrong idea from this thread. I said (ad nusium) this is a thread to try to understand why "some" tanks are not bothered by ich. I did "not" say "do what I do as it is the best way or the only way" I did not say to give up quarantining, I did not say ich won't kill your fish, I didn't say I had a full head of hair. I did say a number of times THE RESEARCH IS FLAWED. It has to be or my tank and plenty of others would not exist. And if someone on here posts that ich life cycle chart again I a going to have my adnoids taken out. I didn't post in the Noob thread so any Noobs here go and watch Sesame Street or one of those stupid reality shows.

I'd rather talk to you about something else There aren't too many baby boomers from Long Island,my home ground is Queens as you know , that I get a chance to chat with anymore.

TMX, where is West Seneca? I also grew up in Queens and lived there until about 79.
Come on over, help me shovel snow....I mean we can have a beer and not mention ick or any 3 letter words as I can't spell the rest of it anyway.:beer:

 

[Paul B]

This little pregnant mandarin is spawning, no ich on her.


These guys are hovering over their eggs, no ich yet. Been a couple of years with me.


This little ich magnet has also been with me a couple of years, see any spots?


In March this larger fireclown will be 21 years old, he will probably start smoking.


I just put this in because I can, and they are so cute.

 

[tmz]

where is West Seneca? I also grew up in Queens and lived there until about 79.
Come on over, help me shovel snow....I mean we can have a beer and not mention ick or any 3 letter words as I can't spell the rest of it anyway.:beer:
:beer:

Love too but it's a tough trip for an old guy like me especially by dog sled.
West Seneca is a suburb of Buffalo.
I lived in Greenpoint Brooklyn till I was 4 .Then in 1950 ,Dad got a little Cape Cod house in Flushing on the GI Bill, He was a decorated WWII vet . Then when I was 12 we moved to Middle Viallage . On to Ft Jackson SC for baisc training in 1967 , out of the army in 1970 ;back to Middle Village until 1973 ,then a series of career driven moves throughout NY state ending in Buffalo. I think we have similar roots. Miss the fishing in Jamaica Bay, Shinnecock Bay , Captree, Montauk, Peconic Bay ,LI sound and other youthful haunts. We've had a place on the Outerbanks,NC since 1984 which satisfies my needs to get to the ocean though and my wif's need to visit her home state.

Very cute. lovely picture, Thanks for sharing it.

 

[Paul B]

Just like me. I was born in Bensonhurst Brooklyn then in 52 moved to Flushing, then in 79 moved to Nassau Long Island. Did basic like you in Fort Jackson but I was there in 69 got back from Nam in 71. My Dad didn't get drafted, I never know why but he was a little old, he would have been 102 now so they made him a plumber building Navy ships in the Brooklyn Navy Yard.
I got 2 Bronze stars in Nam, (I don't even know what one of them was for)unfortunately when I got those, almost 40 guys with me that day didn't make it back, so like in WW2 and the war we are in now, those guys are the hero's and not enough ink is ever spent on them.
Of course your Dad was also a hero to me, and all Vets appreciate their service.
But thanks for your service, I have a lot of respect for guys (and girls) who served.

 

[tmz]

Yeah . I agree the Viet Nam thing was horrible and folks didn't get the respect they disserved for the sacrifice. I enlisted in 1967 served 3yrs. I was in Military Intelligence. Thought I was going Viet Nam but the Soviet Union decided to invade Czechoslavakia in 1968 so the majority of guys from my training group went to Europe; West Berlin ,in my case. I was lucky. In a small way I like to think I helped bring that horrible wall down. My Dad fought in North Africa and Italy,he received a bronze star ,a couple of purple hearts and a prisoner of war medal( 2yeard as a POW). his outfit was wiped out during the assault on Monte Casino. Thankyou for your service as well.

 

[Nikita6711]

Totally Agree

Totally Agree

I have to agree with you, I was actually just reading a study about the immunity of ich in fish.. and they said that after 2 or more ich outbreaks in a tank that DO NOT kill the fish, they become immune. I guess you have to look at it almost like vaccines with live viruses... to become immune or have some resistance to the virus, they inject a dormant form of the virus into your system.. I also have some thoughts about what you were saying about adding water from the sound right into your tank... I would compare it to kids... My 6 year old was very sick at birth, and so we kept her home instead of sending her to pre-school... and let me tell you, every time we even took her grocery shopping, she ended up sick. At 4 we finally put her in pre-school, where she was exposed to anything and everything.. and after a month or two of being sick all the time... she was fine, her immune system was able to build up those resistant antibodies and she started fighting things off... I guess if the study is right, that is what they need, is exposure. However the fish need to be healthy and stable. Just like any human, if you are stressed, or not healthy to begin with, than your immune system is going to be weaker than a healthy person. I think that is awesome that you have had such great luck.. I live in northern CT and I might just have to take a trip to the sound haha.. unfortunately we lost every single fish in our 47 gallon reef tank to ich. It was terrible. We lost about 14 fish in total, including a powder blue tang, a red sea sailfin tang, the list goes on. However it is an ongoing argument between my husband and I, that I still believe we did not lose them all to ICH itself, we lost them because of the treatment... we ended up resorting to copper in a quarantine tank, which was over crowded (it was only a 20 gallon) and they were in copper for way to long. However now that the main tank has been fish free for over 2 months, we just introduced our first new fish, a small maroon clown. We are keeping our fingers crossed.

 

[Paul B]

Nikita, where have you been? Bill and "few" others are always trying to beat me up here and they wish that I would just go away and eat worms. If it were not for me, everyone would just quarantine and live their lives out happy. But we must progress past that archaic system and figure this out. I see the same thing with kids as I have 2 Grand Children now. Doctors don't hardly prescribe antibiotics any longer because it is better for the kids to be exposed to these things so they become immune, in humans that immunity could last a lifetime, I don't know how long it lasts in fish as I only have my tank to go on and a few stores. My neighbor and her husband are always sick, always have a runny nose and sneezing and they live with those stupid hand sanitizers. They keep it in their hand and it is on the table when they eat. I never use one but I almost never get sick.
My Mom recently died at 99 years old. When she was a little girl growing up in Little Italy in lower Manhattan, if she got sick, her Mother would make her go to a stable down the block and sleep with the horses. They thought the smell cured you. My Mother was never in a hospital and she never got sick.
My Uncle also did the same thing and he never went to a doctor, dentist, took an aspirin (or paid taxes) in his life and he also lived in a dump. He even got stabbed twice, nothing happened. (and no doctor, just a rag he used to clean fish was wrapped around his belly)
It is said those people come from strong stock, I say they were immune from living in those conditions with little sanitation.
I don't know why many people resist the "fact" that fish can become immune from ich and just about everything else. They don't want to learn about it or try to figure out how we can use that for our advantage.
In fish it is simple, they just need to eat live foods and not be stressed but in humans it doesn't work that easy. We do have similarities, if we are exposed to the organism, we, and fish build up an immunity. It has to be true or my tank (and my Mom,) would not exist.
Fish breathe water and every organism, good and bad is in water. Seawater is an extension of the fishes circulatory system. They need a better immune system than us just because of that fact. But fish in the sea live fine because they are immune from most things. If you take a fish from a sterile, quarantined tank and release it into the sea, I am fairly sure it would quickly die.:worried:
Nikita, where did you read that study and can you post it or send it to me?

 

[billsreef]

But fish in the sea live fine because they are immune from most things.

Paul where do you think these fish diseases come from in the first place, if not the sea? If there was any truth to that statement, I know a few people working on fish parasites that would need to be switching careers.

 

[Paul B]

I know a few people working on fish parasites that would need to be switching careers.

And I hope those people are trying to answer that question I asked you. Where are all the paracites in my tank going? If they can't answer that, maybe they should switch careers.
Fish in the sea have an immunity to paracites, probably not a full immunity as most fish in the sea carry paracites, but I bet if you quarantine a fish for a month or two it will lose that immunity. That is a guess and not a fact.
If I guess, I say that. I guess. :beer:

And why are they studying fish parasites? I thought we knew everything about the parasite life cycle. Just show them that ich cycle chart that keeps popping up. :headwally:

And Bill, remember , I am just messing with you

 

[billsreef]

Paul,

I don't think anyone is paying anyone to study your tank So they aren't looking at your tank or sacrificing your living fish (parasites leave dead fish promptly, so you won't find them on the dead ones) to do the necessary microcroscopy to look for ich

BTW temps running high 70's to low 80's here

 

[tmz]

I have to agree with you, I was actually just reading a study about the immunity of ich in fish.. and they said that after 2 or more ich outbreaks in a tank that DO NOT kill the fish, they become immune

Hi Nikita,

Thankyou for the post.

There are efforts to create a vaccine.

There have been a number off efforts with exposure. No success to date but the search goes on.
The studies, I've read indicate surviving fish can develop a partial immunity for about 6 months to the particular strain to which they were exposed. (there are hudreds ,perhaps thousands of strains) . The partially immune fish can and does still harbor parasites and supports the parasites life cycle albeit in small numbers as the parasites are still able to settle in the more tender tissues of the nose mouth and gills unseen even if they can 't bore into the epidermis due to enhanced slime coat or some other immuno response by the temporarily partially immune fish.

. If the study you have offers more than that I'd really appreciate it if you could share it or a link to it.

I am sorry for your loses. I lost fish in the past too. Once they are infested ,some die in qt particularly in over crowded qt where ammonia may be an issue.

Going forward you or your husband ( I sure don't want to get in the middle of a spousal disagreement) may find this thread of interest as you bring in new fish:


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...and+quarantine

 

[ClippersTown]

Slgcmg, thank you for agreeing. But remember, it is only an opinion. I don't have much against quarantining for certain reasons. I recently acquired a copperband butterfly for $10.00. It was that cheap because the store had a lot of them and they were covered in ich. Some of them were already dead or beyond help. I didn't want to put this fish directly in my tank. Not because I felt my other fish would get it as I knew from experience that they would not. But I wanted it to have a fighting chance. So I treated the fish in a separate tank for a few days with copper. The spots disappeared and I put that fish in my reef.
In a few days I had to remove him because my older, larger copperband beat the thing almost to death so I managed to catch him and give him away. I posted a thread about that fish on here and the person I gave it to also posted that the fish was doing well. I only treated that fish for a few days until the spots disappeared and he was eating, not nearly long enough to have him free of ich. Those paracites along with countless others are still in my tank.
The time bomb has been ticking for decades but the researchers can't tell me why my other fish are fine, better than fine as they are spawning. I think I could spawn copperbands if I had a large enough tank.

I think people get bored and try to dig deeper into things, and try to act all scientific n stuff when its probably not even needed. I agree with you

 

[DSPs]

And I agree with you clippers

 

[Paul B]

Bill, it is true no one is studying my tank, but maybe they should. They are probably studying tanks where ich killed all the fish. But it is 24 degrees here now and Sunday will bring more snow. My snow blower is getting a workout and I try to keep the thing running as it is almost as old as my tank, I think it is 38 years old. But it keeps running, of course I had to make a bunch of parts for it as they don't make them any more.
I am afraid to buy a new one because I don't want a foreign piece of junk.
Enjoy the warm weather.

 

[rogersb]

I have to agree with you, I was actually just reading a study about the immunity of ich in fish.. and they said that after 2 or more ich outbreaks in a tank that DO NOT kill the fish, they become immune

Hi Nikita,

Thankyou for the post.

There are efforts to create a vaccine.

There have been a number off efforts with exposure. No success to date but the search goes on.
The studies, I've read indicate surviving fish can develop a partial immunity for about 6 months to the particular strain to which they were exposed. (there are hudreds ,perhaps thousands of strains) . The partially immune fish can and does still harbor parasites and supports the parasites life cycle albeit in small numbers as the parasites are still able to settle in the more tender tissues of the nose mouth and gills unseen even if they can 't bore into the epidermis due to enhanced slime coat or some other immuno response by the temporarily partially immune fish.

. If the study you have offers more than that I'd really appreciate it if you could share it or a link to it.

I am sorry for your loses. I lost fish in the past too. Once they are infested ,some die in qt particularly in over crowded qt where ammonia may be an issue.

Going forward you or your husband ( I sure don't want to get in the middle of a spousal disagreement) may find this thread of interest as you bring in new fish:


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...and+quarantine

I am going off memory here, but haven't you also stated that each strain only lives for 2 years in our tanks before it dies out. Something along the lines of - if your fish develop that partial immunity and can weather the paracite for 2 years that strain could die off?

I'm only asking because I am trying to get an idea of how long someone might have to 'live with ich.'

 

[tmz]

I am going off memory here, but haven't you also stated that each strain only lives for 2 years in our tanks before it dies out. Something along the lines of - if your fish develop that partial immunity and can weather the paracite for 2 years that strain could die off?


One study and only one I've seen reported that a single strain of crytocaryon irritans expired in 11months when no new stains were introduced ,suggesting that the ability of the strain studied to remain viable had a limited number of generations with only asexual reproduction. . It took two years for it it to disappear in my tank. Even though the surviving fish in there appeared healthy;new specimens would be attacked. So I think it's possible ,though unproven in a general way, that a single strain can die off if no new strains are introduced over a long period of time.

 

[tmz]

Originally Posted by Paul B
I recently acquired a copperband butterfly for $10.00. It was that cheap because the store had a lot of them and they were covered in ich. Some of them were already dead or beyond help. I didn't want to put this fish directly in my tank.

. But I wanted it to have a fighting chance. So I treated the fish in a separate tank for a few days with copper. The spots disappeared and I put that fish in my reef.
In a few days I had to remove him because my older, larger copperband beat the thing almost to death so I managed to catch him and give him away. I posted a thread about that fish on here and the person I gave it to also posted that the fish was doing well. I only treated that fish for a few days until the spots disappeared and he was eating, not nearly long enough to have him free of ich. Those paracites along with countless others are still in my tank.
The time bomb has been ticking for decades but the researchers can't tell me why my other fish are fine, better than fine as they are spawning. I think I could spawn copperbands if I had a large enough tank.

Why do you think that fish carried parasites into your tank after two transfers( store to your copper tank and then to our display ) and some copper treatment?

 

[Paul B]

Tom, come on. There were about 20 of them in the store, some were dead so they sold the living ones for ten bucks. The thing was covered in paracites and I only treated it for a couple of days. We both know that that is no where near long enough to cure it of paracites. But if you like, if I find another one with ich, I will put it in my tank as it is. It may die but my other fish won't get it. I hope I don't pay more than ten bucks for it. :fun2:

If ich were that easy to cure, there would be none of it.

 

[rogersb]

I am going off memory here, but haven't you also stated that each strain only lives for 2 years in our tanks before it dies out. Something along the lines of - if your fish develop that partial immunity and can weather the paracite for 2 years that strain could die off?


One study and only one I've seen reported that a single strain of crytocaryon irritans expired in 11months when no new stains were introduced ,suggesting that the ability of the strain studied to remain viable had a limited number of generations with only asexual reproduction. . It took two years for it it to disappear in my tank. Even though the surviving fish in there appeared healthy;new specimens would be attacked. So I think it's possible ,though unproven in a general way, that a single strain can die off if no new strains are introduced over a long period of time.

OK. I had been meaning to PM you to see if that was what you meant. Thank you!