To quarantine or not to quarantine, that is the question...

[jcw]

Ich is a parasite that needs a fish host . If you never put it in your tank it won't be there. If you do put it in it lasts for a very long time unless the tank is left fishless for 72 days. Even if you don't see it will persist in small numbers hiding in the delicate tissues of the nose ,mouth and gills of fish which may have partial immunity from an earlier exposure. Each parasite multiplies by 200 or so when it leaves the fish and encyst. Often new specimens even those that are healthy and have been qtd get ich when introduced(they have no immunity) and can spark an outbreak where the increase in the number of parasites overwhelms the immunity of the other fish bringing down large numbers of fish if not the entire fish population.

if the ich persists in the delicate tissues of fish and can be present for a "very long time", it seems as though quarantining fish without treatment is still risky. Interesting...

Qt needs to be carefully planned and implemented to create a temporary envirornment to meet the needs of the particular specimen (s) including: space,resting places,foods , takmates , in some cases sand pools,etc. . It takes some work and monitoring and lots of control over urges for instant gratification. A very big danger in qt is ammonia. Monitoring and control is a must Establishing a cycled qt tank with a functional biofilter before use makes this unlikely .

I wish I could pick your brain further on this topic. I'll do a search to see if you have expounded on this in the past.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. :beer:

 

[jdoenumber2]

I have be told at said pet store that they were sea tulips. Grow great love any water conditions. Only a ten dollar frag. I passed on thank god.

I had a feeling my views would be unpopular. I'm just being a straight shooter vs an idealist. I'm not throwing stones at all!!! Just opening my dirty little closet a crack. Ideally, I WOULD QT everything. Do I? Ashamedly, no. Have I gotten lucky with fish? Yes. Corals....not so much. FWIW the mojanos were intentionally introduced under false identification sold to me at a nameless FS from Rochester.

 

[tmz]

jcw, You are welcome.

There should be plenty of my posts on quarantine and/ or cryptocaryon irritans. Some turned acrimonious. I try to be less cantankerous these days but still like to see good information shared. If you have questions feel free to ask them here . There are very knowlegeable and friendly folks on this thread. I'm sure you'll get a wealth of information from them . I'll pitch in as well.

if the ich persists in the delicate tissues of fish and can be present for a "very long time", it seems as though quarantining fish without treatment is still risky. Interesting...


It can be present in the tank for an indefinite period of time( years) as long as at least one parasite finds a fish to host it after cysts hatch every week or so. It only stays in the fish for a few days to a week. So most copper treatments run 14 days to ensure the parasite is exposed during it's free swimming phase. Since it multiplies so quickly , just one parasite can set off an outbreak.

Search cryptocaryon irritans and I'm sure you'll find plenty of information on it's life cycle and treatment options. Search the other diseases too. Then you'll be in a good position to make informed judgements on qt and treatment protocols that suit you and the specimens you choose to keep.
There are plenty of debates on best methods and you need to make choices. For example: some reefers don't favor any prophylactic treatment since they believe the medications cause undue stress; some favor hyposalinity for concern that some specimens may be very sensitive to medications ; some note hypo resistant strains of ich, extraordinarily long qt periods and a lack of effectiveness as reasons not to use hypo; some prefer tank transfer which is an excellent med free method requiring the movement of the fish from one tank to another every 3 days for a total of 4 transfers leaving the parasites that leave the fish in the empty tank. (It's labor intensive since each time a completely dry tank or one soaked in freshwater overnight needs to be used).

 

[tmz]

I was wondering when Tom was gonna b#tch slap me

:lol::lol::lol:

Never Mark , I could never stand in the way of righteousness. Particularly, in front of a fellow who shoots straight from his dirty closet and scrubs with lava soap.:fun2:

 

[MarkKlier]

Thought I would give my 2cents. First tmz, thanks for the post. Very well done.
This thread is timely for me since I recently ran into a problem that surprised me. I had two black clowns in my 180 for years. They recently started nipping at my rose. Pulled them out and put them in the 220. Sure enough my achilles came down with sever ich. Now my hippo also has it. I have not lost a fish in years, both tanks are very stable. I did add some gravel recently to the 220. The cysts can live for years in gravel.
SOOOOOO now,
I will pull the clowns. Do water change including siphoning the gravel. Monitor the fish to see how sick they are going to get. Start setting up a treatment tank while monitoring.
Will use a spong bubble filter in the treatment tank. Since I have no "cycled" sponges as of now, will use the spong I have in my sump and try to addapt it for the treatment tank...
Have treated fish in the past with copper (lower doses) and hyposalinity down to about 1012, with great success. I have used the UV sterilizer in the treatment tank. I found the bacterial counts went from very high (yes I did grow them on plates) to zero, using the UV.
It is usually the secondary bacterial infections that kill the fish quickly (IMHO). In QT I can always get the fish fatter and happier. However, these fish are already fat and happy. Will keep you posted.
MK

 

[Willistein]

Thanks guys for the feedback - I now have to figure out how to treat my yellow tang. He is very fat and mostly happy, but he definitely has something going on that could be crypto. The only other fish is a 6 line wrasse which will be pretty much impossible to catch. I did a freshwater treatment for a few minutes with the yellow tang because he had something else on him. They looked like small white flatworms or flukes or something and they fell off during the freshwater dip. I'll try to get a picture of the fish, but the bottom line is this parasite stuff is making a quick convert of me to the path of righteousness!

Edit - definitely flukes. These ones:
http://biodidac.bio.uottawa.ca/thumbnails/filedet.htm?File_name=MONG007P&File_type=jpg

 

[Willistein]

OK, so where do I pick up prazipro and cupramine?

 

[IronMan72]

Only take disease free fish that have been in the lfs tank for a couple of weeks and that appear healthy(myth).

While this is a good practice,these tanks have high turnover of specimens and the new fish may have been exposed to a contagious disease which is pre symptomatic when you observe it.

I generally QT fish and dip corals but have made exceptions at the recommendation of the lfs. The rationale that was given to me was that since they run copper in all of their tanks, and the fish has been in their system for three months then there is nothing to worry about. Sounds like this may not be such a good argument, or is it?

 

[MarkKlier]

Ironman, they do run copper, but at subtheraputic levels. That way they do surpress the ich, but do not treat it.
MK

 

[Willistein]

Picked up Prazipro and a 15 gallon tank at ABC Aquarium - thanks G! I'm going to start with 1.010-1.013 salinity and Prazipro and go from there. Probably will be treating crypto and flukes at the same time. Let the fun begin...

 

[tmz]

Mark K You are welcome.
Sorry if I was unclear.
I did not mean the cysts(tomonts or protmonts) remain vialble in gravel for years. They die when dry.. They usually die within 6 weeks in salt water( in one study they remained viable for 72 days) without a fish for the "hatchlings" (theronts) to infest. Vacuuming the gravel is a good idea in any case since the cysts attach to surfaces.

These protozoans can live in a tank for years at a sub clinical level as long as there is a fish or two even with partial immunity in the tank . Fish immunity may be to a specific strain to which they were exposed and there are thousands of strains. I'd guess the clowns t brought it in to the tank or the clowns hosted a strain already there to which they had no immunity sparking an outbreak.

I wish I knew how to do bacterial counts. I'd like to monitor those in the water column in asessing the effects of various organic carbon dosing at least on the waterborne bacteria.

Your measurements on UV are interesting and confirm my thinking. I've been in a few discussions with a marine biologist who argues any bacteria reduction from UV will quickly be compensated by equilibrating growth by the remaining bacteria . I still tend to think UV keeps them down if the UV application is big enough.
Hope you tangs recover well and soon.

 

[tmz]

I generally QT fish and dip corals but have made exceptions at the recommendation of the lfs. The rationale that was given to me was that since they run copper in all of their tanks, and the fish has been in their system for three months then there is nothing to worry about. Sounds like this may not be such a good argument, or is it?


I'd still qt . Prolonged copper treatment at a sub lethal level could encourage a resistant strain,imo.

 

[Tracey2]

I've tried to set up my QT as a spa tank, I keep excellent water quality low lighting with many feedings in as natural looking environment as I can. I feel it gives me time to get aquainted and beef up my new addition before they have to meet the old timers, well worth setting up.

 

[jcw]

Any studies on whether a tank without substrate reduces the viability of the cysts?

 

[MarkKlier]

Tom I did a study using blood agar plates to look at bacterial counts. While these were not Marine cultures, I used them as being reflective of the bacterial load in the tank. With out a doubt the bacterial load dropped dramatically using UV.
If you look at public water systems, where UV is very well studied, it does not support the concept of rapid growth of other bacteria to reach equilibrium. I studied this in a qt tank for months. As long as the UV light is sized correctly and the water flow is correct, the effect was dramatic. In fact much more dramatic then I thought it would be.
MK

 

[Willistein]

Tom, do you have a standard procedure for bringing in new fish? What would you recommend for treating a yellow tang with confirmed flukes and possible (likely) cryptocaryans?

My plan is to (in a 15gal QT) do a hypo treatment at 1.011 for 6 weeks and also dose the prazipro at the beginning for flukes. At 6 weeks if all looks well, I will slowly bring the salinity back up and put them back in the DT. Is there any reason I should try copper?

 

[Gravesj1s]

Wow, a good read for sure.

I gota be honest and go with the other criminals,admitting I dont quarantine new fish.Recent reality check with adding corals and live rock,no possible way I will add something again without carful inspection and quarantine period.

Some other thoughts I cant help ask or throw out here.

I'd have to look it back up but as I think I remember it in Spotte's CSF ,copper was thought to do more harm than good.The author points to damage to the fishes liver ,kideys and awhole host of otherthings ailing.I believe he further states that its use should be considered a toxin rather than a remedy.Goes on to how copper has an affinity for carbonate and that it quickly depletes from solution making dosing guess work.

The other thing (and Im probably wrong) pertains more to bacterial or seconary infections is that fish tend to scrape or scratch themselves when infected by ick and other parasitic forms.It sorta makes more sense to me in that a quarantine tank shouldn't have sharp-ish things like liverock and sediment whitch would or could lead to secondary infections aside from it making copper dosage much more unpredictable..I dont know but thats how I rememeber it.

 

[Gravesj1s]

I forgot another was rawfish foods were mentioned as parasite contributors.

 

[tmz]

Hi again Mark

Tom I did a study using blood agar plates to look at bacterial counts. While these were not Marine cultures, I used them as being reflective of the bacterial load in the tank. With out a doubt the bacterial load dropped dramatically using UV.
If you look at public water systems, where UV is very well studied, it does not support the concept of rapid growth of other bacteria to reach equilibrium. I studied this in a qt tank for months. As long as the UV light is sized correctly and the water flow is correct, the effect was dramatic. In fact much more dramatic then I thought it would be.
MK
Wow
Thanks for the information and the experiment. I personally think uvs are very helpful in this way. Glad to hear it is as dramatic as noted.
However, the counter argument has been that water treatment applications are single pass systems wherein around 99.9% of the bacteria are killed via heavy uv exposure and that uvs are not nearly as effective in recirculating systems like closed aquariums where some planktonic bacteria always remain in the water or benthic bacteria hang on to surfaces and chip off later.

Nevertheless, your culture study is heartening , particularly since the low counts lasted for months . Your work on this should be part of the debate on uv effectiveness in bacterial reduction in a ricrculating system in my opinion.
For me ,it might be a negative, since I dose vinegar and vodka to encourage heterotrophic bacterial growth to control NO3 and PO4 and have no idea whether the operative bacteria are mostly benthic or planktonic.

 

[tmz]

Any studies on whether a tank without substrate reduces the viability of the cysts?

None that I know of but it is generally accepted practice to run bare bottomed treatment tanks and to vacuum the bottom regularly.Much easier than trying to get the cyst off the sand or rock it seems.