Treating with Vitamin C

[montanabay]

symbiotic zooxanthellae is present in most reef corals, including anemones and clams. This is what give them the bright colors (photosynthetic reflectance). These articles just happen to be sea sponges. But the same process occurs in all corals.


SYMBIOSIS in symbiotic zooxanthellae
(http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/info-books/coral/adaptations.htm
1.

Reef-building corals have a mutualistic relationship with zooxanthellae, microscopic algae that live with coral polyp's tissues. Both the polyp and the zooanthellae benefit. For this reason, reef-building corals are found only in areas where symbiotic zooxanthellae can take in light for photosynthesis.

2.

Through photosynthesis, zooxanthellae convert carbon dioxide and water into oxygen and carbohydrates. The coral polyp uses carbohydrates as a nutrient. The polyp also uses oxygen for respiration and in turns, returns carbon dioxide to the zooxanthellae. Through this exchange, coral saves energy that would otherwise be used to eliminate the carbon dioxide.

3.

Nitrogen and phosphorus are cycled between zooxanthellae and coral polyps. For example, zooxanthellae take in ammonia given off as waste by the polyp, and return amino acids.

4.

Zooxanthellae also promote polyp calcification by removing carbon dioxide during photosynthesis. Under optimum conditions, this enhanced calcification builds the reef faster than it can be eroded by physical or physical or biological factors.

 

[Pufferpunk]

And VC does what for all this?

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12671488#post12671488 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Skeptic_07
nice fillabuster.

the first absract you have sighted has something to do with sponges. The second is about a protozoa more specifically paramecium. the third is again about a sponge. I dont see what any of this has to do with what we are doing.

I can't figure out what this 'oxygen peroxide' actually is. the term itself is redundant like saying chocolate fudge. "A peroxide is a compound containing an oxygen-oxygen single bond." So i guess oxygen peroxide would be ... ozone? *shrugs* ozone helps greatly in lowering redox readings, which is what you want, -250 or so.

chocolate fudge is not redundant, fudge is just sugar, butter, and what not, chocolate fudge is a type of fudge, just like maple fudge is a type of fudge.

oxygen peroxide is typo, it should be superoxide

 

[Jeff]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12671600#post12671600 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pufferpunk
And VC does what for all this?

Nothing. Its a cut and past war!!! AHHHH lol. Speak from experience guys .

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12671600#post12671600 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pufferpunk
And VC does what for all this?

"When the simbiotic zooxanthellae on the corals produce food by photosinthesys it also creates oxidants like superoxide that can damage the coral so the coral has to either create an antioxidant or expell the zooxanthellae (bleach) to get rid of it.
Vitamin C being an antioxidant could help the coral reduce the stress caused by the oxidants.

In other words the benefit of the vitamin is not because the coral uses it as a vitamin (like we do) but because the vitamin reduces the stress of the oxidants on the corals."

 

[Pufferpunk]

So it's an anti-oxident that helps stressed-out corals?

 

[Skeptic_07]

i see.... .















>.>

<.<



i still dont see the relevance of this to L-ascorbate and also the paramecium abstract?

 

[montanabay]

its possible, my zoas and softies all bleached out and closed up for months after I upgraded my lighting, I'm guessing the shock of the inceased light caused the an overload of photosynthic activity in the zooxanthellae, building up toxic oxidants in the coral, causing them to bleach out and melt away.

Again, this is my best guess of what happen in my case and why V-C caused such a dramatic rebound in my corals.

 

[ct_vol]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12671654#post12671654 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by montanabay
"When the simbiotic zooxanthellae on the corals produce food by photosinthesys it also creates oxidants like superoxide that can damage the coral so the coral has to either create an antioxidant or expell the zooxanthellae (bleach) to get rid of it.
Vitamin C being an antioxidant could help the coral reduce the stress caused by the oxidants.

In other words the benefit of the vitamin is not because the coral uses it as a vitamin (like we do) but because the vitamin reduces the stress of the oxidants on the corals."

So VC would benefit any corals that have zooxanthellae including SPS and LPS???

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12671700#post12671700 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Skeptic_07
i see....

i still dont see the relevance of this to L-ascorbate and also the paramecium abstract?

they are just supporting articles to help explain the oxidative processes that occur in photosynthetic organisms, and how they deal with it through anti-oxidizing compounds.

 

[Skeptic_07]

"The vast majority of animals and plants are able to synthesize their own vitamin C, through a sequence of four enzyme-driven steps, which convert glucose to vitamin C"

 

[toaster77]

yes, to sum up, a major role of ascorbate is to function as an anti-oxidant that can reduce stress or damage.

i think it is striking that ascorbate biosynthesis increases with light intensity, which really suggests a "photo-protective" role to both protect against the side reactions of photosynthesis and perhaps enhance photosynthetic output.

i'm sure you all have heard of "free radicals" or "oxygen radicals" or "oxidative stress" - these are specifically peroxide, superoxide that are produced from doing chemistry with oxygen and those are bad, and in many cases can cause stress and cell death. some people think this is a major cause of aging as well, though that is debatable.

 

[montanabay]

Sunscreen or cosmetics with UV blockers might also be a major culprit in the mysterious zoanthid melting phenomenon among reefers, as I image a few people forget to wash their hands or arms after using lotions with UV blockers and stick them in their tanks. If enough sunscreen from swimmers can cause coral bleaching near beaches, I image it wouldn't take much to contaminate a 12-100gal tank.

Here is the article: (Note: Not directly related to V-C topic, but might explain some peoples coral problems).

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080129/full/news.2008.537.html
Sunscreen wipes out corals
Study shows how chemicals can kill symbiotic algae.
Susan Brown
Sunscreen can bleach coral reefs, researchers have confirmed. The chemicals that filter ultraviolet (UV) light can activate latent viral infections in the symbiotic microalgae that the corals rely on for nutrition.
Many divers are already warned not to wear sunscreen near corals, but usually for the general reason that introducing foreign chemicals into the water is a bad idea. The new study puts some scientific evidence behind this precautionary approach.
Resort managers in Mexico first spotted the trouble when enclosed pools called cenotes on the Yucatan Coast became popular swimming holes. "They saw a high mortality of all living things," says marine biologist Roberto Danovaro from the Polytechnic University of Marche in Ancona, Italy. Concerned that sunblock might be the culprit, several resorts banned its use by snorklers and divers exploring the cenotes and nearby reefs.
Danovaro and his co-workers set out to see whether they could prove the link between sunscreen and die-offs. They collected nubbins of coral from reefs scattered throughout the tropics: the Caribbean Sea off Mexico, the Indian Ocean off Thailand, the Red Sea off Egypt and the Pacific Ocean near Indonesia. When they incubated each sample in seawater spiked with as little as 10 microlitres of sunscreen per litre, coral bleaching occurred within four days. Controls incubated in plain seawater remained healthy, the team reports in a forthcoming issue of Environmental Health Perspectives 1.

 

[Pufferpunk]

So can we work backwards here & figure out why my zoas need an anti-oxident boost, so they don't melt away all the time?

 

[toaster77]

from what i know about biology, here's my take on Vitamin C:

Pros: all the great things you read here on RC

The only negatives I can think of are:

1. ascorbate in excess could be used as a carbon source that might promote growth of undesirable algae/bacteria/microbes. Also, one should keep Vit. C in the dark, refrigerated, and sterile if possible, because it could decompose or become contaminated by bacteria/mold.

2. it might induce coloration that is "extreme" or "unnatural" or "bland"- but that might or might not be a bad thing.

3. depending on what form of Vitamin C you dose (i.e. pills or tabules or pellets) those may contain other compounds that could cause negative effects.

4. watch your pH if you dose the pure acid form

Personally, I dosed Vit C intermittently and it rescued some Tubs Blues in my tank that looked dismal and on their way out. Now they are thriving. I cannot prove that the Vitamin C is what caused them to improve. Also I have since then stopped dosing Vitamin C and they are still ok.

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12671863#post12671863 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Pufferpunk
So can we work backwards here & figure out why my zoas need an anti-oxident boost, so they don't melt away all the time?

treating the cause and not the symptom is always the best way to go...but the problem is we don't know the cause OR how our treatment is exactly working....all I know it it work for me with no harm, if my corals ever show stress again, V-C dosing will be first on my list.

 

[Pufferpunk]

Now with this info, I feel a bit more secure in writing an article. I felt uncomfortable writing something with no scientific explaination.

 

[toaster77]

also you will notice that many frozen reef foods (like the mysis, cyclops cubes made by H2O Life) have ascorbate listed as an ingredient... so i suppose they might encourage addition to tanks... though they don't disclose how much ascorbate is present.

 

[montanabay]

If you write an article do a literature review on symbiotic zooxanthellae or symbiotic algae in corals, understand how that processes works, how it fails, and how supplementing anti-oxidants *might* help. I think that is the strongest lead we have.

 

[Skeptic_07]

so, corals are like people in that they dont make thier own vitamin C and have to absorb it from the water like humans who must ingest it.
is that right? :lol:

If too much light causes overactive zooxanthellae resulting in oxidative stress. the solution seems very simple to me since we are the ones who control the lights on our tanks. :lol:

what else you got?