Treating with Vitamin C

[Pufferpunk]

Use a Independent Certified Research
Lab not someone associated with the experiment or a friend of someone or some company involved in the experiment.

If only... I brought this to Eric Borneman (who has the facilitries to do this) & he shot me down cold. Since his zoas are "growing like weeds" in his tank, he sees no reason to experiment.
If anyone wants to see the thread:
http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic78707-9-1.aspx?Update=1

 

[JAMDivers]

Well, it seems like a few things are clear here....

1) You were correct when you said that it didn't last very long in aquaria for cell uptake.

2) We now know from 2 sources that carbon and polyfilters (and I would venture to say Purigen too) won't have any effects on "stripping" this out of the water column as it doesn't last long enough or is chemically compatible enough (with carbon) to be absorbed.

3) Since there might be the suggestion of the VC product we're using reducing trace elements...how many of us are adding a supplementary trace elements to our reefs either via product or frequent water changes?

4) Makes me wonder since using VC seems to be beneficial in many of the reefs participating....I wonder if it would be even more beneficial to use just the L-Ascorbic acid only...and is that available to us as consumers? (Don't know I'm not the chemist, Mbay's friend?)

5) Makes me glad I use a polyfilter if heavy metals could be leached out into the system, hopefully prior to uptake by the inverts???

It is a shame that you were turned down. Looks like it would be a good graduate project.

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12786377#post12786377 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JAMDivers
Sorry...here's the reply (maybe MBay could show this to his chem friend too):

"Why are so you adding L-Ascorbic Acid , sodium salt (Fw : 198.11) instead of using
L-Ascorbic acid ( Fw: 176.12 ) ? The L-Ascorbic acid (Fw:176.12 ) is available in a
99+ % ACS Purity with <0.002 % Heavy metals & < 0.002% Iron where as the
L-Ascorbic Acid, sodium salt is not available in even a 99 % purity level .
The L-Ascorbic Acid, sodium salt that you are using contains higher levels of
both Heavy Metals & Iron impurities. These heavy metals specifically lead may
be deposited in Invertebrates.

first shot at first paragraph.

1) Most of us are using mineral ascorbates because it is widely available for human consumption form. Mineral ascorbates are popular for human consumption because it buffered, therefore less acidic and easier to take. It also makes it easier to dose as buffered form won't drop your PH as much.

2) I'm guessing that these ascorbate supplements, meant for human consumption won't have very high heavy mental content. It is not uncommon for people to take 1000mg-2000mg of VC a day, so if there was accumulatable lead in it, there would be some big trouble. Trace iron is actually a limiting factor in many ocean systems, meaning the ocean as a limited amount of available iron for organisms to use, and this limits growth (this is probably not true in out aquariums), a little bit of iron is a good thing.

Let me think on the rest.

Cheers,

Josh

 

[JAMDivers]

You make some very valid points sir, and I agree with the iron comment too. (There has been some talk about the supplementation of iron for Gonioporas' better health and mine has opened up more this past week than ever....coincidence??? Maybe.)

Effects I've seen this week so far...

My zoas having begun multiplying more rapidly; one of my mushrooms is starting to split from it's base (newer colony of which none have reproduced yet); my hammer coral has decided to develop a second mouth on the largest branch (splitting?) and my one Acro has had amazing PE this week.

So, things are looking pretty good....I up the dose today and we'll see how it goes from here.

 

[toaster77]

i haven't checked on this thread in awhile, but just wanted to comment:

i agree with montanabay's chemist friend - carbon is unlikely to absorb Vitamin C effectively. carbon tends to absorb uncharged, non-polar organic molecules. ascorbate is highly water soluble and charged, so retention by carbon is expected to be minimal. don't know about polyfilter and the mechanism by which it works.

as for heavy metals and purity of ascorbate, one would presume the food/vitamin grade ascorbate would be ok to reef animals, i have dosed (although sparingly) lab grade ascorbate that is 98+% pure with no obvious detrimental effects on inverts.

as for measuring the stability of ascorbate in saltwater this is potentially something I could attempt at work but I don't have the time right now.

 

[Pufferpunk]

Bump up to 1st page.

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

Since it dissolves quickly - tell me this: would it make sense to dose the corals directly? Either:
* mix tank water until dissolved, turkey baster it on them
* same, along with food - this may be the best? Adding nutrition they will certainly uptake directly into their bodies?
* dose directly near them in crystal form so they benefit from proximity as it dissolves and can get uptaken?
* dose sump
* dose overflow box
* dose fuge


Looking to push best practice here. I believe this has great potential and want to explore, through the RC Community's experience, what works best...

(I'm still a ways off on my new build but plan to do this from Day 1, just trying to keep this important convo going)

 

[Pufferpunk]

VC is still an acid & may burn your corals if placed directly on them. I've been dosing for 7 months now & it's working just find by adding to the water. I do use Selcon in their food, which also contains some VC.

 

[Jeff]

Bump for Puffy

 

[borcu]

what do you think about this product?

http://www.marineandreef.com/Brightwell_Aquatics_Vitamarin_C_p/rba01068.htm

 

[SW_nOOb_SC]

Depends on whats in it. I feel safer with the Iherb product. Not only is it cheaper, but it has pretty much nothing else in it. Its pure VC.

 

[Pufferpunk]

Agreed--depends on how much VC is in each capful (or whatever measurement they are using for this product). I mean, 1/4 tsp of the I-Herb product is 1112mg of VC. You can get 16oz of the crystaline form for <$13 (only $4 shipping too). A bottle of the liquid is >$20 & I bet the shipping is more.

 

[SW_nOOb_SC]

Not the best comparison i know, but its all i have right now. This is over the course of less then 1 month. I highly believe this is all because of the Vitamin C. Not dosing anything else, and nothing has changed except for dosing the VC.

Before - Notice the long stalks. Not to many polyps. (5-7 polyps)

After - Explosion! Look at all the babies. (30+ polyps)

I'll try and get one of them open later, i just was fragging today so i snapped a pic just to show how many polyps.

I'm a believer.

 

[jjmcat]

I must say that VC has really worked for me.I have been dosing 5000 mg per day.I am not sure if that's to much or to little but my polyps that were once in distress have worked up and have been multiplying faster then ever.I have a total volume of 150 gallons.I started using the pill form with the rose hips for about three weeks before I purchased the pure form from a local health food store.I have been using this now for almost three weeks.

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12846833#post12846833 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SW_nOOb_SC
Not the best comparison i know, but its all i have right now. This is over the course of less then 1 month. I highly believe this is all because of the Vitamin C. Not dosing anything else, and nothing has changed except for dosing the VC.

Before - Notice the long stalks. Not to many polyps. (5-7 polyps)


I'll try and get one of them open later, i just was fragging today so i snapped a pic just to show how many polyps.

I'm a believer.

The first shot looks like a brand new frag... Is that the case?

 

[SW_nOOb_SC]

Brand new to my tank yes. No idea how new it was before that.

 

[Peter Eichler]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12852644#post12852644 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SW_nOOb_SC
Brand new to my tank yes. No idea how new it was before that.

In that case it's kinda hard to attribute the change and growth to vitamin C. I've had countless frags color up and multiply rapidly shortly after receiving them without ever dosing vitamin C, as have many many others. I've often witnessed the most explosive growth within the first couple months after adding a new frag.

 

[Pufferpunk]

What about all the dying zoas that have come back like weeds since I've been dosing or that single polyp that is 25 now, where the colony were disappearing before dosing?

 

[ryno212]

Peter true... I have put in a frag of Nucs. with 2 heads on it and within a month time I have 12. But now it has slowed down. Sometimes going from someones tank to yours can either cause them to stress and die, or explode in growth. I don't do Vit C. and I see that happen to me all the time....Not saying that the Vit C doesn't work, but going from one different water quality to another can change the growth or death rate of any coral.

 

[SW_nOOb_SC]

I have seen polyps popping up on a small rock (former frag) covered in bubble algae. Out of no where 2 polyps have broken through and are coming back to life. I had tossed the rock in a corner not expecting any more Zoas on it. I was wrong!

Also before VC, the frags of Zoas i had in my tank just exsisted. Now they are thriving seeing new babies all the time. Stress can cause growth i know this, but i'm more inclined to think the VC produced all of the growth in my tank because before, i had never seen it explode like it has.