Peter Eichler
New member
JUst out of curiosity, did you dose trace elements, amino acids, or anything like that when you were have problems with zoanthids Puff?
Treating with Vitamin C
- Thread starter JohnL
- Start date
- Status
Pufferpunk
New member
I do 20% WC every 2 weeks & dose trace elements occasionally.
OCEAN SIZE
BACK REEFIN'
An anecdote that comes to my mind (fully applicable or not)...
Centuries ago, Turkish mothers used to load a tiny amount of smallpox from infected people on pins, then pinprick their childrens skin. Westerners thought this was completely insane; at best it was useless, worst it was infanticide.
The Turkish mothers had no concept whatsoever of microbiology. It was the 16th-18th centuries, the Ottomans did not share as much in the Age of Reason, and they were Muslim women. But unlike Western Europeans, their kids survived smallpox epidemics at an astonishing rate.
As much as science is about skepticism, the scientific method, and proof, it is also about acceptance that the universe is not wholly understood and repeatable observations are the basis of scientific law.
Peter- barebottom tanks, carbon dosing, and other trends have come back into fashion, and as there is greater understanding of reefkeeping because of the conversations and shared observations we discuss, the legitimate effects can be honed in on.
I mean this with the utmost respect and agree that a side-by side tank analysis with an identical water feed source, same maintenance routines would provide more observational proof.
Me, I'm inclined to err on the side of lab-grade Vitamin C dosing from what I've read. But I think its important to continue the discussion, even from the perspective of skepticism in my opinion.
SIDE NOTE - I had a system crash at the end of this post (GRRR!) but Firefox 3.0 recovered this message in the Quick Reply. F-yeah Firefox!
Centuries ago, Turkish mothers used to load a tiny amount of smallpox from infected people on pins, then pinprick their childrens skin. Westerners thought this was completely insane; at best it was useless, worst it was infanticide.
The Turkish mothers had no concept whatsoever of microbiology. It was the 16th-18th centuries, the Ottomans did not share as much in the Age of Reason, and they were Muslim women. But unlike Western Europeans, their kids survived smallpox epidemics at an astonishing rate.
As much as science is about skepticism, the scientific method, and proof, it is also about acceptance that the universe is not wholly understood and repeatable observations are the basis of scientific law.
Peter- barebottom tanks, carbon dosing, and other trends have come back into fashion, and as there is greater understanding of reefkeeping because of the conversations and shared observations we discuss, the legitimate effects can be honed in on.
I mean this with the utmost respect and agree that a side-by side tank analysis with an identical water feed source, same maintenance routines would provide more observational proof.
Me, I'm inclined to err on the side of lab-grade Vitamin C dosing from what I've read. But I think its important to continue the discussion, even from the perspective of skepticism in my opinion.
SIDE NOTE - I had a system crash at the end of this post (GRRR!) but Firefox 3.0 recovered this message in the Quick Reply. F-yeah Firefox!
Peter Eichler
New member
I was actually making an attempt to determine why Pufferpunk was having so many problems with zoanthids prior to the vitamin C additions. Trace elements have been shown to be toxic at elevated levels. It is also believed the bacteria will take in amino acids and trace elements. so if vitamin C is acting as a carbon source it could have lowered potentially toxic levels of a trace element by increasing the bacterial populations. Thanks for the smartass remark though, and sorry for trying to help figure out what vitamin C might actually be doing or why Pufferpunk was having problems in the first place.
Last edited:
Peter Eichler
New member
While comparing the basis of a smallpox vaccination to dosing vitamin C for zoanthids is quite the reach, I'll take your post as a sort of backhanded encouragement. However, it's become quite clear that many people in this thread would rather remain in the dark and look at vitamin C as some sort of magical cure and could care less how or why it has helped their situation. A cure for something that most people will never experience. With that being said, I think I'll just wash my hands of this thread and allow it to continue unfettered by my input. Good luck to all...
Just a random sidenote, bare bottom tanks never went away, the DSB and plenum just made ithem less popular for a time.
OCEAN SIZE
BACK REEFIN'
Sorry I mentioned you by name Peter - I'm curious to see more information, which your questions generate, while I'm also willing to take anecdotal evidence there is a benefit.
I'm just saying there's a lot of room for discovery still in what seems like an ever-evolving hobby. I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to give you an example that resonated with me that a detailed scientific explanation may be beyond current anecdotal observation.
Also, I'm with you on being skeptical, especially since snake oil is detrimental to the hobby. I simply tried to explain it as I saw it, not attack you personally.
In time, I could set up the experiment. In fact, what I'm planning in my new system lends itself to testing this. I could use cheap, common, tough zoo's and a few small chambers plumbed from tank overflow under the stand.
I'm planning quarantine chambers under there, but it could be used equally as a test environment. I'm not a scientist, but if I keep it simple enough and have different dosages in different chambers of otherwise equal water parameters from a central feed, I might be able to contribute. Hmmmm....
Sorry also to you guys I related to long dead Ottoman women!
I'm just saying there's a lot of room for discovery still in what seems like an ever-evolving hobby. I'm not disagreeing with you, just trying to give you an example that resonated with me that a detailed scientific explanation may be beyond current anecdotal observation.
Also, I'm with you on being skeptical, especially since snake oil is detrimental to the hobby. I simply tried to explain it as I saw it, not attack you personally.
In time, I could set up the experiment. In fact, what I'm planning in my new system lends itself to testing this. I could use cheap, common, tough zoo's and a few small chambers plumbed from tank overflow under the stand.
I'm planning quarantine chambers under there, but it could be used equally as a test environment. I'm not a scientist, but if I keep it simple enough and have different dosages in different chambers of otherwise equal water parameters from a central feed, I might be able to contribute. Hmmmm....
Sorry also to you guys I related to long dead Ottoman women!
I'm with Peter on this. I think finding out why Puffy's and some of the others zoanthids were melting in the first place would be of greater help to the rest of the community. I've had a couple frags melt after they've been shipped. Basically the only melting that has occured in my tank was do to stress. So wouldn't it be important to know why Puffy's are melting if it's not stress. We don't know what VC does, or how, or why. All we know is that it works for some to improve growth and color. I need to ask one question please don't jump all over me or get defensive. When you say that your Zao and other corals are growing and and colored up faster more however you use to describe it- How do you know that they're not just growing at the average rate that the rest of ours that don't seem to have the same problems are growing at? Maybe it just seems like an explosion to you? Also what would happen if someone not experiencing any proplems used VC would our colors get even better as well as our growth rates? I understand your excitement and I'm happy that it's working for you. I would never tell you to stop doing what works for you. I do however worry that VC seems to be the new cure all. It's become the standard answer when someone has problems with their zao. And that I think is where problems may arise.
~Dee~
~Dee~
Ricunger
New member
Anyone use this?
Vitamarin-C
Sizes
250 ml, 500 ml, 2 L, 20 L
Overview
• Highly-concentrated vitamin-C solution.
• Buffered; will not impact pH when used as directed.
• Stronger than competing products.
• Vitamin-C is associated with improved tissue growth and with aiding the immune system.
• Intended to provide benefits to all aquarium inhabitants.
• Well-suited to use in coral propagation.
• Requires no refrigeration.
• Composed of purified water and ultra-high purity ingredients.
• Formulated by a marine scientist.
Technical Background
The benefits of vitamin-C to aquatic organisms are largely related to improved tissue growth, particularly after recently-sustained injury or illness. Corals and their allies, in particular, have been observed to benefit tremendously from regular controlled dosage of vitamin-C by increasing their rate of soft tissue growth; this aspect is of particular interest to hobbyists and researchers involved with coral propagation, in which coral tissue is damaged during the process of splitting colonies and/or individual polyps. Grow-out systems regularly dosed with vitamin-C also tend to have improved growth rates when compared to control systems with identical environmental conditions. These benefits are believed to be a result of the positive impact that vitamin-C has on the immune system; this benefit translates to fishes as well as to the remainder of invertebrates maintained in marine aquaria.
Vitamins are compounds required in minute concentrations for vital metabolic reactions; the amounts of vitamins required for a given species varies. Short-term vitamin deficiencies can typically be tolerated by most organisms, however long-term deficiencies tend to result in abnormalities, poor health, and eventually even death of the specimen. Conversely, if severely overdosed, ingested vitamins can have a negative impact on a specimen by way of toxicity, though the impact is unlikely to be permanent. Decreasing the vitamin dosage typically results in full recovery of the affected specimen. For these reasons, it is recommended that Vîtamarin-C be utilized either as a means of delivering vitamins to aquarium inhabitants through food or by direct addition to the water, but not both except as noted on opposite panel when using with organisms that have sustained tissue damage.
Vîtamarin-C does not require refrigeration, however storage in a cool, shaded area will prolong the activity of the vitamins. Refrigeration will maximize the shelf-life of the product.
Instructions and Guidelines
If adding directly to aquarium water: Begin by adding 2 ml (approximately 16 drops) of Vîtamarin-C per 20 US-gallons of water weekly for the first four weeks of use; this corresponds to adding approximately 2 drops per 20 US-gallons each day. Then, gradually increase the weekly dosage to 4 ml per 20 US-gallons over the following four weeks and maintain this dosage. [Note: if using Vîtamarin-C in conjunction with Brightwell Aquatics Vîtamarin-M, decrease dosages by 50%.] Starting at a low dosage will not cause any harm to the livestock, and will enable you to notice subtle changes in the appearance of the system that indicate the effectiveness and need for the product.
Note that doubling the dosage of Vîtamarin-C is acceptable when fortifying food meant for organisms appearing to be in poor health, including fishes and invertebrates. Maintain the increased dosage only as long as is deemed necessary, and observe water quality carefully at all times, making adjustments as needed. No medicinal claims are made for Vîtamarin-C, however vitamin-C has been consistently observed to have a positive impact on immune systems, in general.
Caution: Keep out of reach of children. Not for human consumption.
Guaranteed Analysis
Ascorbic acid (C) (min): 1,500 mg/oz.
Ingredients
Purified water, Ascorbic acid, Buffering agents.
Vitamarin-C
Sizes
250 ml, 500 ml, 2 L, 20 L
Overview
• Highly-concentrated vitamin-C solution.
• Buffered; will not impact pH when used as directed.
• Stronger than competing products.
• Vitamin-C is associated with improved tissue growth and with aiding the immune system.
• Intended to provide benefits to all aquarium inhabitants.
• Well-suited to use in coral propagation.
• Requires no refrigeration.
• Composed of purified water and ultra-high purity ingredients.
• Formulated by a marine scientist.
Technical Background
The benefits of vitamin-C to aquatic organisms are largely related to improved tissue growth, particularly after recently-sustained injury or illness. Corals and their allies, in particular, have been observed to benefit tremendously from regular controlled dosage of vitamin-C by increasing their rate of soft tissue growth; this aspect is of particular interest to hobbyists and researchers involved with coral propagation, in which coral tissue is damaged during the process of splitting colonies and/or individual polyps. Grow-out systems regularly dosed with vitamin-C also tend to have improved growth rates when compared to control systems with identical environmental conditions. These benefits are believed to be a result of the positive impact that vitamin-C has on the immune system; this benefit translates to fishes as well as to the remainder of invertebrates maintained in marine aquaria.
Vitamins are compounds required in minute concentrations for vital metabolic reactions; the amounts of vitamins required for a given species varies. Short-term vitamin deficiencies can typically be tolerated by most organisms, however long-term deficiencies tend to result in abnormalities, poor health, and eventually even death of the specimen. Conversely, if severely overdosed, ingested vitamins can have a negative impact on a specimen by way of toxicity, though the impact is unlikely to be permanent. Decreasing the vitamin dosage typically results in full recovery of the affected specimen. For these reasons, it is recommended that Vîtamarin-C be utilized either as a means of delivering vitamins to aquarium inhabitants through food or by direct addition to the water, but not both except as noted on opposite panel when using with organisms that have sustained tissue damage.
Vîtamarin-C does not require refrigeration, however storage in a cool, shaded area will prolong the activity of the vitamins. Refrigeration will maximize the shelf-life of the product.
Instructions and Guidelines
If adding directly to aquarium water: Begin by adding 2 ml (approximately 16 drops) of Vîtamarin-C per 20 US-gallons of water weekly for the first four weeks of use; this corresponds to adding approximately 2 drops per 20 US-gallons each day. Then, gradually increase the weekly dosage to 4 ml per 20 US-gallons over the following four weeks and maintain this dosage. [Note: if using Vîtamarin-C in conjunction with Brightwell Aquatics Vîtamarin-M, decrease dosages by 50%.] Starting at a low dosage will not cause any harm to the livestock, and will enable you to notice subtle changes in the appearance of the system that indicate the effectiveness and need for the product.
Note that doubling the dosage of Vîtamarin-C is acceptable when fortifying food meant for organisms appearing to be in poor health, including fishes and invertebrates. Maintain the increased dosage only as long as is deemed necessary, and observe water quality carefully at all times, making adjustments as needed. No medicinal claims are made for Vîtamarin-C, however vitamin-C has been consistently observed to have a positive impact on immune systems, in general.
Caution: Keep out of reach of children. Not for human consumption.
Guaranteed Analysis
Ascorbic acid (C) (min): 1,500 mg/oz.
Ingredients
Purified water, Ascorbic acid, Buffering agents.
Pufferpunk
New member
In answer to a few of the Qs above:
I never dosed trace elements in any of my other tanks--just more recently (within the past 2 years) in the larger, main display tank I have now (90g) & only between WC. I never dosed alk, Ca or Mg in my 1st reef tank (55g), where the problem of losing zoas started. I had large colonies of close to 100 polyps, melt & are entirely gone. I have more recently (since adding VC), seen a single polyp I didn't even know was there, grow into a colony of over 20 polyps within a month. I do not think the larger polyps size, sudden growth rate & brighter colors are because of the natural progression of my tank.
Jeff said he had stopped using VC & could definately see a difference in his corals when he stopped & have since restarted the dosing.
I never dosed trace elements in any of my other tanks--just more recently (within the past 2 years) in the larger, main display tank I have now (90g) & only between WC. I never dosed alk, Ca or Mg in my 1st reef tank (55g), where the problem of losing zoas started. I had large colonies of close to 100 polyps, melt & are entirely gone. I have more recently (since adding VC), seen a single polyp I didn't even know was there, grow into a colony of over 20 polyps within a month. I do not think the larger polyps size, sudden growth rate & brighter colors are because of the natural progression of my tank.
Jeff said he had stopped using VC & could definately see a difference in his corals when he stopped & have since restarted the dosing.
Peter Eichler
New member
Bleh, I said I was going to walk away, but I just can't help myself...:lol:
You say you never dosed, CA, MG, or buffers in your tank. Did you monitor the levels and just not need to add them, or did you not test and not dose?
As for Jeff, he went from dosing vitamin C (which I feel is acting as a carbon source) to another probably more concentrated carbon source. Knowing that certain strains or bacteria will develop based on the carbon source. By switching from one carbon source to another he may have essentially starved his existing bacteria that was feeding off the vitamin C and started from scratch with a new strain by switching to vodka. This would certainly cause some turmoil in a reef tank. Also, with vodka possibly being a more concentrated carbon source it may have dropped his nutrients to a point where it stressed certain inhabitants whereas vitamin C did not.
I'm not doubting that vitamin C is doing something and has helped some people in this thread. However, I doubt that the vitamin C itself is the reason people are seeing corals doing better and that it's more a result of improved water conditions as a result of various reactions taking place as a result of the vitamin C additions. At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum... Reports of cloudy water most likely as a result of bacterial blooms, reports of slime building up (bacteria mats), lower nitrates/phosphates, algae dying back, all point to vitamin C acting as a carbon source. Lastly, the reports of alkalinity creeping up with vitamin C dosing is the same thing that happens when another acidic carbon source such as vinegar is used.
Last edited:
Pufferpunk
New member
Peter, I don't think you see the big picture of my reefkeeping "education". My 1st tank I never tested or dosed & the zoas melted. My upgraded tank I test for Ca, Mg & alk & dose accordingly--zoas still melted. Zoas are now doing great now & the only extra thing I'm adding (during the past 7 months), is VC. I still test/dose regularly & add essential elements.
Whalehead9
New member
Peter - are you currently running any carbon sources to your tank at the moment? The reason that I ask is that I was thinking along the same lines and posted a few questions in the chemistry forum. I asked in particular what VC actually breaks down into. Holmes-Farley sent me a message back with the answer. I will try to find it later, and post it here. It might be posted in this monstrous thread somewhere, I cannot remember.
The gist of it was that is does not directly break down into any metabolic energy sources. However with all of the anecdotal evidence that it is acting as a carbon source, (bacterial mats, heavy nasty skimmate, etc.) I wonder if VC is acting as a more complex carbon source that can eliminate the worry of monoculture that many other vodka dosers worry about.
I this is a major stretch, but I wonder if VC acts to probiotically helps eliminate the nasty bacteria causing the melting zoos.
I know that this stuff is not a magic dust, but I am now considering using VC as a carbon source to go along with the Glassbox VSV recipe. One part iVSV in the morning and then dry VC later. Because of the ability not not acutely overdose this stuff when the tank is used to a carbon dosing regime, it could help be a solver to the monoculture.
Just my 2 cents.
The gist of it was that is does not directly break down into any metabolic energy sources. However with all of the anecdotal evidence that it is acting as a carbon source, (bacterial mats, heavy nasty skimmate, etc.) I wonder if VC is acting as a more complex carbon source that can eliminate the worry of monoculture that many other vodka dosers worry about.
I this is a major stretch, but I wonder if VC acts to probiotically helps eliminate the nasty bacteria causing the melting zoos.
I know that this stuff is not a magic dust, but I am now considering using VC as a carbon source to go along with the Glassbox VSV recipe. One part iVSV in the morning and then dry VC later. Because of the ability not not acutely overdose this stuff when the tank is used to a carbon dosing regime, it could help be a solver to the monoculture.
Just my 2 cents.
Peter Eichler
New member
I'm currently not dosing a carbon source, but have been considering it. I don't have detectable nitrates and phosphates but do have some microalgae so I know my aquarium is struggling to process them.
Just looking back at some of the photos it does appear that cyanobacteria and or microalgae played some part in the zoas that were being described as melting or unhealthy. If the vitamin C is acting as a carbon source it would be understandable why it's helping in those instances. And yes, it could help in eliminating the problems with monocultures. Though I don't believe a monoculture is possible in an aquarium, I do believe it's possible for one strain to dominate.
I look forward to you posting what Randy had to say. However, I do recall stearic acid as being one of the ingredients of vitamin C. Perhaps randy could explain better what this means... "Stearic acid undergoes the typical reactions of saturated carboxylic acids, notably reduction to stearyl alcohol, and esterification with a range of alcohols."
Pufferpunk
New member
They tried to cure polio with mega doses of VC, on tonight's episode of House.
Whalehead9
New member
Here is the link to Randy's VC breakdown.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1338359&highlight=vitamin+c
Unlike vodka or sugar that can kill O2 levels because of immediate uptake by bacteria, VC has to break down into possible metabolites, and that might hep keep O2 levels higher.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1338359&highlight=vitamin+c
Unlike vodka or sugar that can kill O2 levels because of immediate uptake by bacteria, VC has to break down into possible metabolites, and that might hep keep O2 levels higher.
Pufferpunk
New member
Folks have already stated in this thread that their ORP levels drop after adding VC but no one has said it has caused any problems & it rebounds quickly.
They tried to cure polio with mega doses of VC, on tonight's episode of House
I saw that too.
It seems to me that every carbon source has a specific microalgea that it attacks. I would be really interested to see the results of dosing with all the available sources vinager,sugar vodka, and VC.
Puffy if I remember correctly you as well as some of the others said that you treated for cyano before starting VC and haven't had any since correct? I did try sugar a while back and it worked great except I got cyano after awhile. Which in turn had some of my Zao's close up but no melting. I slowly stop dosing sugar and the cyano went away and zao opened. So perhaps VC lowers your phosphates in some way? As sugar lowers you nitrates. Just a thought?
~Dee~
I saw that too.
It seems to me that every carbon source has a specific microalgea that it attacks. I would be really interested to see the results of dosing with all the available sources vinager,sugar vodka, and VC.
Puffy if I remember correctly you as well as some of the others said that you treated for cyano before starting VC and haven't had any since correct? I did try sugar a while back and it worked great except I got cyano after awhile. Which in turn had some of my Zao's close up but no melting. I slowly stop dosing sugar and the cyano went away and zao opened. So perhaps VC lowers your phosphates in some way? As sugar lowers you nitrates. Just a thought?
~Dee~
Peter Eichler
New member
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12901778#post12901778 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by DEEC77
They tried to cure polio with mega doses of VC, on tonight's episode of House
I saw that too.
It seems to me that every carbon source has a specific microalgea that it attacks. I would be really interested to see the results of dosing with all the available sources vinager,sugar vodka, and VC.
Puffy if I remember correctly you as well as some of the others said that you treated for cyano before starting VC and haven't had any since correct? I did try sugar a while back and it worked great except I got cyano after awhile. Which in turn had some of my Zao's close up but no melting. I slowly stop dosing sugar and the cyano went away and zao opened. So perhaps VC lowers your phosphates in some way? As sugar lowers you nitrates. Just a thought?
~Dee~
Carbon sources don't "attack" algae, they strip the water of the nutrients that feed them. So no, different carbon sources do not attack different miocroalgaes. Though a different carbon source may result in a different strain of bacteria, I believe that the various strains still perform the same function. The levels of various dissolved nutrients in relation to one another may play a role in what algaes remain and what algaes perish. For instance, if dosing the carbon source helps to remove X amount of nitrates it will remove X amount of phosphates as well, if phosphates are in a higher concentration in relation to nitrates you could end up with a nitrate deprived system that still have somewhat elevated phosphates. At least that's how I understand it... Of course, an algaes ability to prosper in lower nutrient conditions than another will play a role as well.
If people were in fact having problems with cyanobacteria prior to starting vitamin C it only makes sense (if it is acting as a carbon source) that it would help various corals and the overall tank conditions. Cyanobacteria growth, especially if it's growing on zoanthid polyps is a sign of unhealthy tank conditions so of course people were having problems with various inhabitants.
Peter Eichler
New member
ORP is a very unstable measurement and many additives will cause readings to dip.
- Status
Similar threads
