Treating with Vitamin C

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12672559#post12672559 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Skeptic_07
so, corals are like people in that they dont make thier own vitamin C and have to absorb it from the water like humans who must ingest it.
is that right? :lol:

Are suggesting that because they naturally produce it, they couldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t benefit from supplementation? Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m confused why this so funnyââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12672559#post12672559 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Skeptic_07

If too much light causes overactive zooxanthellae resulting in oxidative stress. the solution seems very simple to me since we are the ones who control the lights on our tanks. :lol:

I did reduce my light time, but saw no results

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12672559#post12672559 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Skeptic_07

what else you got?

If it wasnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t for your antagonizing I probably wouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have done a lit review this farââ"šÂ¬Ã‚¦but, its actually interesting stuff and this article seems to support my theory. For those who just want the gist of the article, read the bold red at the end.

Cheers,

Josh

http://ir.lib.u-ryukyu.ac.jp/bitstream/123456789/794/1/2005PG-18.pdf
PG-18 Preliminary studies on the bleaching mechanism using coral cell aggregates
Badrun Nesa and Michio Hidaka
Department of Chemistry, Biology and Marine Science
University of the Ryukyus, Nishihara, Okinawa 903-0213
INTRODUCTION
To investigate bleaching mechanisms of coral-zooxanthella symbiotic systems, it is important to study response of corals to stress conditions at cellular or tissue level. We attempted to establish an experimental system to study response of coral cells to stress treatment and chemical reagents such as antioxidant. Dissociated coral cells aggregate to form spherical bodies, which start to rotate by ciliary movement. These spherical bodies (tissue balls) stop their rotation and become disintegrated when exposed to stress. The first objective of our study is to evaluate the use of tissue balls for bleaching studies. The second objective is to test the hypothesis that zooxanthellae produce harmful substances such as active oxygen when exposed to high temperature under light.
MATERIALS AND METHODS
We exposed tissue balls containing various numbers of zooxanthellae to high temperature and examined the relationship between the zooxanthella density and survival time of the tissue balls. Tissue balls were prepared from dissociated cells of Fungia sp. Dissociated cells were allowed to form cell aggregates (tissue balls) in a petridish for one night. Tissue balls of similar size were put in each well of a 96 multi-well plate containing 300 ul FSW and allowed to recover overnight. The volume of tissue balls was estimated from video print assuming that they are ellipsoid. Tissue balls were then exposed to thermal stress (31Ã"šÃ‚°C) or control condition (25Ã"šÃ‚°C). Tissue balls were observed at 2-6 h intervals during the daytime until all the tissue balls died. In some cases, antioxidants (125 uM ascorbic acid and 250 Uml-1 catalase) were added during high temperature treatment. Tissue balls were scored as healthy, stopped, or degraded at each observation to make survival curves under high and normal temperature conditions. After the tissue balls disintegrated, the number of zooxanthellae within each tissue ball was counted to calculate zooxanthella densities of the tissue balls.

RESULTS AND DISCUSSION
Survival curves of tissue balls were markedly different between 31 and 25Ã"šÃ‚°C. At 31Ã"šÃ‚°C tissue balls, died more quickly than those kept at 25Ã"šÃ‚°C. Addition of antioxidants extended the survival time of tissue balls at 31Ã"šÃ‚°C. There was a negative correlation between the survival time and zooxanthella density of tissue balls at 31Ã"šÃ‚°C, while no significant correlation between survival time and zooxanthellae density was found at 25Ã"šÃ‚°C or at 31 Ã"šÃ‚°C in the presence of the antioxidants. There was no significant correlation between the survival time and the size of tissue balls at both temperatures. The present results showed that the higher the zooxanthellae density was the more quickly the tissue balls died and supported our hypothesis that zooxanthellae produce harmful substances and cause damage to coral cells under stressful condition.The finding that the antioxidants extended the survival time of tissue balls at high temperature suggests that zooxanthellae produce active oxygen species under the stress condition. This study also showed that tissue balls provide us a good experimental system to study the effect of stress condition and various chemical reagents on corals cells.

Key words: coral, bleaching, active oxygen, zooxanthellae, symbiosis

 

[ReeFdOnkey]

anyone try the new BRIGHTWELL AQUATICS Vitamin-C.. its liquid form.. but is BUFFERED! and will not affect PH.. i didnt read all $) pages so dont know if this was spoken about already.. thanks

 

[Pufferpunk]

How concentrated is it? Is that all that's in there? How expensive is it?

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

They have a Flash website - can't copy text to paste here.

It says 1,500 mg/oz.

 

[Pufferpunk]

Considering that bottle contains <9oz, that's not many treatments. I'm dosing ~4500mg 2x/day, into my 90g alone (I dose 2 other tanks too). The crystaline product I use has 1112mg per 1/4tsp & contains 16oz for $12.

 

[montanabay]

just make sure it is buffered to ~8.2 or it will change your ph, which is why when people dose with VC buffered for humans (designed to be neutral "7") it still tends to lower your aquarium ph.

cheers,

josh

 

[Pufferpunk]

Although the product I use says 7.1, my pH remains at 8.3 & I rarely ever have to add any buffer. Alk is usually ~9, with the addition of 25mg of alk weekly. Weird, huh?

 

[OCEAN SIZE]

Plus, I'd personally trust bulk, lab-grade anything over most aquarium products.

How many times have we seen something universally available (or by order easily) run up in price by a staggering order of magnitude sold at local fish shops or big websites... because it has a sticker with a picture of an angelfish on it ?

Good find though - thanks for pointing it out. Definitely worth looking at and knowing about, even if I'm skeptical on quality and dosage. At least that tells us its mainstream enough...

 

[montanabay]

get lab quality ascorbic acid in bulk like this

http://www.fishersci.com/wps/portal...lpi=&highlightProductsItemsFlag=&fromSearch=Y

$61.15 for a 100g bottle.

Cheers,

Josh

PS: You would have to be careful with this stuff, it will drop your ph like a rock, I always does with a ratio of kalk that I know keeps my ph at 8.2

 

[Pufferpunk]

I use this:
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=-7152293197697039798

 

[Jeff]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12679252#post12679252 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by montanabay
get lab quality ascorbic acid in bulk like this

http://www.fishersci.com/wps/portal...lpi=&highlightProductsItemsFlag=&fromSearch=Y

$61.15 for a 100g bottle.

Cheers,

Josh

PS: You would have to be careful with this stuff, it will drop your ph like a rock, I always does with a ratio of kalk that I know keeps my ph at 8.2

That stuff is WAY more expensive that the stuff we use and it isnt suitable for human use. Read back a few dozen pages to see what we are doing (or "were" doing in my case ). The aascorbate acid that reefers are using works great and is really cheap.

 

[Jeff]

The cutting/pasting is getting silly in this thread. Not much of it really pertains. The point of this thread for those of you that read the entire thing , is that viamin c is once again being used in reef aquaiums with huge sucess. Roughly 90% of the people that follow Pufferpunk's suggestions will have great success in healing soft corals and making all corals including sps, lps, and softies thrive and spread. It worked for me and almost all of the other people that responded in this thread with first hand experience.
This isn't pointed at anybody in particular but anybody can join a conversation with theories and quote other people's information that really doesnt have to do with the subject at hand but the results speak for themsleves. Whatever is in the stuff, works...period. Be it a carbon source, an anti-oxident or any other big word that is being cut and pasted here...it works. the people that didnt have success with vitamin c probaly didnt use it as suggested or already had a carbon source being dosed (such as myself at the end).


I dont mean to sound rude. This zillion page thread has been a big help to many people because of Puffy. Lets keep it going with useful informaion.
BTW, Wikipedia contains laughable information .

 

[Skeptic_07]

thanks jeff, you do sound rude and i'm glad my participation is appreciated.

in response to that abstract cut and pasted above, the corals in our tank are not bits of tissue in petridishes and when these antioxidants are mixed into the water of our aquariums, its not only contacting the corals, as it is in the experiment.

Furthermore, that experiment was done to see if antioxidants will help corals under duress, not healthy corals. I can see how useing vitamin C temporarily will help to alleviate stressed corals, but that is not what is being advocated here. There is no reason to act like vitamin C is the cure every time someone has some polyps that dont look quite right. I have one coilony out of about 20 or so that looks messed up. theres no rhyme or reason to why zoanthids act the way they do. They just do.

Even more it is unethical to tell newbies to start dumping this stuff into thier tank when proper husbandry and understanding of water chemistry should be advocated first. Especially when you then tell this new aquarist to input some code to save yourself some money.

IMO this thread should be in the 'advanced' section.

I've said my piece, and none of it was copy-pasted.

 

[Jeff]

Ok . Sorry you feel that way. I still stand by Pufferpunk's suggestions and our firsthand experience. We still dont really know exactly what vitamin c does to help even after all of this . If this type of dosing doesnt fit your needs or your way of reefkeeping, then dont do it. If you trust Pufferpunk and this method, then try it slowly as directed and join the many people that have had success. If skepticle, then move on.
Its not unethical to offer suggestions based on first hand experience and then tell them how to do it cheaply. You can disagree but the numbers of success stories speak for themselves. If you read the entire thread or even the last 20 pages, you would have learned that it isnt for everyone. I stopped after having a great success with it.
Part of having a conversation is sharing opinions not imposing them. This HUGE thread was about sharing information.
I am sorry if I didnt agree with your views and I am sorry if your feelings were hurt by my words Skeptic_07.

 

[Skeptic_07]

This thread is for the discussion of the use vitamin C, is it not? has this last post you've made done anything to move the discusstion forward? no. How have i 'imposed' anything? i haven't. I have read the majority of this thread and I have used vitamin C, in limited quantities, with no real evidence to prove anything. does that matter? no. I am allowed to post my thoughts here reguardless of what anyone else says. This is america we have freedom of speech here.

my original post (the one about vinegar, vitamin C, alcohol and sugar) was meant to be informative. I though people would fid the similarities between those, like how sugar is converted to alcohol and then to vinegar, very interesting. I did. And then before anyone had any chance to comment on it this other guy buries it by cutting and pasteing pages and pages of completely irrelevant information.

I have nothing against you and you have had no reason to rebut every post i have made. It is because of this rediculous behavior that I am not going to try to contribute useful to this forum any more. It is very clear that my opinions and thoughts are worthless here. I'll just stick to posting pictures, commenting on others pictures and trying to help people in need of help.

MUCHO, if you read this post, this is why your beloved zoanthid forum has had very little activity.

 

[Jeff]

Ok Ok lol, PEACE!

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12686677#post12686677 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeff
The cutting/pasting is getting silly in this thread. Not much of it really pertains....

.... Be it a carbon source, an anti-oxident or any other big word that is being cut and pasted here...it works. the people that didnt have success with vitamin c probaly didnt use it as suggested or already had a carbon source being dosed (such as myself at the end).....

.....I dont mean to sound rude. This zillion page thread has been a big help to many people because of Puffy. Lets keep it going with useful informaion.
BTW, Wikipedia contains laughable information .....

I started following this thread and contributing back before it split and have subscribed since. The reason it massive is because of repetitive loop of people posting the same question, ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œmy zoas are melting what do I dose for a #gal tank?ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ and Puffy referring them to the proven chart (which I used with great success), but at this point in the thread people wonââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t get anymore information from page 55 than page 34, its just on repeat.

I believe that VC is doing something in the tank, but I only have a theory and the reason I copied and pasted those journal article abstracts (not Wikipedia) was help further our understanding symbiotic organisms and how zoanthids might be utilizing dosed VC, be it a carbon source or anti-oxidant or reefer placeboism.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12686965#post12686965 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jeff
We still dont really know exactly what vitamin c does to help even after all of this .

So we should be content with dosing VC and not exploring why it works? Why are zoas get sick? Why the lose color or start melting? There is an explanation(s) and that explanation will only contribute to the future success and proper husbandry of reef keeping.

For the record I appreciate Skeptics banter, although it might be a little to antagonizing at some points he brings up good points and questions, that drive this discussion closer to closure.

I would recommend that Puffy contacts a moderator to generate a sticky or add to the one there with a brief on VC in reefing, her dosing chart, and a "proceed at your own risk".

 

[Jeff]

Well said montanabay. This information does, at times, come across as advocating "snake oil" and maybe it is but it does work (for one reason or another).
I re-read my last couple posts and I can see how it could be derived as strong and for that I apologize to those offended. Puffy is a friend of mine and will defend her work here. She has gained nothing by it and it has helped a lot of other reefers.

 

[montanabay]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12687147#post12687147 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Skeptic_07
I did. And then before anyone had any chance to comment on it this other guy buries it by cutting and pasteing pages and pages of completely irrelevant information.

I did read your post and didn't mean to "bury" it. I posted those articles on the thread way back in an attempt for a *possible* explanation, so I reposted them.

I guess I didn't explain the articles well enough, I though people would be able to read them and make the connections.

In my review of peer reviewed literature those where the best I could find and I wanted share that information, primarily about zooxanthella symbiotic systems (be it a sponge, coral, or paramecium) the photosynthetic process is going to be nearly the same, so it is VERY pertinent. In science it is hard to always explain a whole system and every process in every species, so we must rely on what we know about similar systems and make a theory.

 

[Pufferpunk]

I did try to make some sort of short info page a sticky here. Was turned down. I take offence that I am trying to profit in any way from this. I constantly post the cpoupon code for $5 off everyone's order. If they want to refer me, I get a measly 2% off my next order. I tried to speak to the company that sells the VC aboug getting a discount code for RC to use, since I'm sure their sales have gone up for this product tremendously but they wouldn't listen.

Although I began dosing VC to save thousands of $$$ worth of zoanthids I continue to lose, I found fantastic benefits for my healthy corals too & will continue to dose VC, until I see adverse affects from this.