trickle tower/external filtration-why do they give MORE nitrate?

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Because the media in these filters is covered in highly oxygenated water which is ideal for nitrifying bacteria. Denitrifying bacteria need anaerobic conditions such as are found inside LR and in a DSB.
 
These type filters will do a good job of braking ammonia down to nitrate (aerobic bacteria), but do not provide the anaerobic conditions necessary for the anaerobic bacteria to brake the nitrate down. This is why you end up with high nitrate levels.

You will need anaerobic bacteria to brake the nitrate down or you will need to brake the nitrate down using algae, macroalgae or in some cases true vascular plants (seaweeds).

The Complete Nitrogen Cycle
http://web.archive.org/web/20030510...iers+--+Biochemistry+of+Aquaria&RecordNo=3090
 
Re: trickle tower/external filtration-why do they give MORE nitrate?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14951196#post14951196 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by semmyroundel
Can anyone explain to me why these filters, or the wrong type of media within them produce more nitrate than another?
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Live rock and sand provide the last step in the de-nitrification cycle. They harbor the bacteria needed that will take the cycle to the last step and those bacteria are not normally found in any quantity in media other then live sources.
Eventually your system will convert nitrate to nitrogen gas and eliminate it as well.
 
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You have not posted in a while. ;)

Ya think ya got enough answers quickly enough. :lol:
 
Thank you all for your speedy replies, no I haven't posted in a while but will be doing so more frequently now, in addition to getting some pics up, the reason is that: 1. I'd forgotten where this forum was due to PC change and kids intervening and 2. I let my tank lie fallow, whereupon it got covered with Bryopsis (hasn't had a skimmer for a while, not been keeping up with water changes etc). Why? kids, self-employment and wife demanding other projects. Well ENUFF I SAY!
I'm determined to get the tank looking great now so I'm back with a vengeance, but the first thing was to get that "old wives' tale" sorted out.
I can understand now, it's not that they produce more nitrate per se, it's just that they favour or contain more oxygen loving bacteria which don't break down to nitrate. Ok, so is there a reason why a trickle filter AND living rock/Berlin method can't happily co-exist to complete the picture, and just to complicate the issue, what about having a nitrat reductor as well? Having a 70 UK gallons tank only ( 305 litres) there's not much buffering capacity so I like the idea of more filtration than normally needed.
 
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I ran a trickle filter for a couple of years, in tandem with a DSB and never had detectable nitrates. I think the other reason they can "become nitrate factories" is because they can harbor detritus. If you run filter media prior to the trickle filter, though, and you keep up on changing it, they're fine, IMHO.
 
Thanks again all, especially Mr Highlander, that "advancedaquarist" article was the one that explained it all to me in plain english, and I would recommend all looking at this thread for answers to look there for supreme enlightenment.
The other was way too tecchy for me and to be honest, if I got to where that French guy was with the chemistry-it's time for me to give up, Man, that looked like HARD WORK! and do we really need to go there? Perhaps if I were fragging goniopora or staghorn then maybe. Anyhow, I've just ordered a Deltec APF600 skimmer and hope that will make my system change from plenum to Berlin a smoother one.
 
Consider every thing is converted to something. Nothing just appears from no where. Regardless of the end results all that is created by the biological systems is a result of input. There will always be a mass balance. Meaning for every 1 going into the process there must be a cumalative 1 coming out. The 1 can however be broken down in different proportions but all the parts must always total up to 1.
 
Not to post hijack here but along the same lines...I run a trickle, plenum with 3"sand bed and lots of live rock. Is this system fighting against itself in any way?
 
You think along the same lines as I do- over rather than under filtration. Now that was the essence of my next thread, can one over-filter water? Everyone seems to agree here that the trickle has had its day, so even if you did get rid of it, I think that the plenum would do the de-nitrating for you. Lest's see what response we get, if none in a coupla days, I'll submit a new post about over-filtration.
Regards
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14964695#post14964695 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Titus07
Not to post hijack here but along the same lines...I run a trickle, plenum with 3"sand bed and lots of live rock. Is this system fighting against itself in any way?
Click to expand...
:) No fighting against itself but likely performing nitrification and denitrification in less than optimal proximity,giving nitrate a chance to circulate and be absorbed by nuisance algae before it gets to the rock or substrate.
 
The trickle filter will more convert the organic nutrients through the ammonia/nitrite to nitrate stage. This will lower the biomass film on the liverock and live sand and slow down their ammonia/nitrite to nitrate conversion abilities, but should not in any way lessen or slow their abilities to denitrify. Basically the trickle filter will compete with the other two filters for nutrients at the begining of the nitrification process but will not compete for nitrates.

Even with that being said unless maintaining fish only or fish and some of the the nutrient loving soft corals I would not use a trickle filter. Meaning unless keeping a very heavy fish load with stoney corals and also providing some form of denitrification I would not recommend a trickle filter with stoney corals. IMO remote deep sand buckets work better in conjunction with trickle fiilters than deep sand beds under lights or live rock. I maintain all my tanks remote deep sand beds without lights or creatures.
 
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I dont have the space to run a RDSB. Would I be better off on the whole if I take out my bioballs and replace with a filter sock in the same place?
 
Hi, I think Titus and I are getting some great feedback, as for me, I've been out of the new way of thinking so could someone explain fully how an RDSB is made and the priciples of how they work as opposed to a lit sand bed, are they refugiums? I've heard that word bandied about hereabouts.
Keep up the stirling work gentleman.
Regards, Semmy.
 
Typically you use a salt bucket and place a uniseal fitting on each side about an inch below the top rim. Flow water through it from an overflow drain or pump water to it from a sump and gravity drain to the sump. Run water at a fast enough rate that the top layer remains flushed of any detrits. Fill the bucket to a level about an inch below the ottomof the pie inlet and outlet with a fine sugar sized sand, such as aragonite or even silica sand. Keep a lid on the bucket to prevent algae growth. No micro algae, macro algae or critters. It is only for denitrification with no inntent of making it a nitrification filter. They are basically a remote very deep sand bed with out the complications of a lit deep sand bed. Typically no clumping of sand, no matting of the top from algae, no dragging of detrtus into sand by critters. Just denitrification.
 
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