Try again: Is anybody running an algae scrubber as primary filter.

[Mark]

Argh! I'm just dying to set up a reef again! I hate having to wait.

Liquid,

Do you have any pics of your current ATS? My dumpbucket would get weighed down with algae in a matter of days, at which point I would have to scrap again. Eric mentioned in his article that this problem initially occurs due to the water heavy green strand, which eventually get succeeded by tougher turfs. As this happens, the tray will not suffer from the problem as frequently, and scraping can be reduced to biweekly.

 

[LiquidShaneo]

Mark,

Nope, I'm not running an ATS yet. I wish I were as these dinoflagellates are kicking my tanks butt. I had the opportunity to purchase Ctenophores ATS 250 but the price was way out of my price range at the time.

From talking w/ people on reefkeepers-l (particularly Bill Capman), it's my understanding that within a matter of a week of installing his ATS 250 on his tank at the university his stringy algae problems went away. I'm hoping to mock up the above picture attachment in 2-3 weeks and see what happens. I've got my fingers crossed at this point...

Shane

 

[scot]

What do you guys think of Anthony Calfo's comments on "vegetable filtration" and "algal scrubbers" inhibitting coral groth? I'm almost done building my ATS unit, but Anthony's comments have me rethinking it's use.

 

[Frick-n-Frags]

Shoot!, That sure looks like it needs investigation. But, as it stands, I haven't noticed any slowdowns yet (not that I started with the fastest growing coral, because of no extra feeding) Maybe all my stuff has already been slowed down or maybe that isn't the whole story in a nutshell, like certain plants put out certain chemicals that harm coral while others don't.

I don't buy into any cart blanche concepts anymore, because nothing is so cut and dried in our reefs, but if algae is going to cause problems, I'm setting myself up for a doozy!(maybe not so funny) My whole system will be the algae scrubber. (macros in every tank that can support them except the SPS tank,because the Mithrax crabs will waste anything soft I put in there) I have two tanks(well one tank and one sump) with the macros dominant and I am working on the other two tanks that can support it.
The trick will be deciding how much and when to harvest it, but now I am just growing it out.

 

[gregt]

Can somebody explain to me the logic behind adding fertilizer (nitrate / phosphate / etc) to your tank? The whole point of the filter is to remove nitrate / phosphate / etc., so it seems like these filters are a rather bad idea if they require you to add such unwanted nutrients to keep them running.

This whole concept defies logic.

 

[Flatlander]

Hmmm, not stunting my growth yet. Who is that guy? I thought I knew most authors. Does Inland Aquatics not have good coral growth?

I dont know if they are better or worse than a skimmer based system. To early for me to tell. I am not one that has went skimmerless because of a distaste for my skimmer. I am still a skimmer believer & my Euroreef sits ready.

 

[LiquidShaneo]

FWIW, I've also read Anthony's Book of Coral Propagation and I am going to disagree w/ his assessment that algal scrubbers inhibit the growth of corals. I wish more authors would footnote their source for statements as I'd like to read the sources that they are citing. I'm not saying he's right and I'm not saying he's wrong. The literature could bear this out but until I see a couple of papers on growth inhibition, I'm going to remain skeptical.

Let's think here a minute: Inland Aquatics has been using algal turf scrubbers *exclusively* on *all* of their systems. I've seen their setup first hand and I saw some awesome corals there. Go ahead and use your ATS.

Shane

 

[DKKA]

Inland Aquatice: Sarco's as big as my daughter, and lots of huge and awesome SPS.

Growth inhibited? I think not. Even if this guy did provide references I wouldn't buy it.

 

[DKKA]

For that matter, I was in Michigan a couple weeks ago and made a trip to Tropicorium. Many of their tanks were supporting a lush growth of grape caulerpa and other macro algaes.
Obviously they aren't too concerned about stunted growth.
Dan

 

[AHAB]

Stunts growth?
Not in my tank!
I have over growth that I bring to the reef club meetings each month.

AHAB

 

[Mark]

This is too funny...

At the Ft. Lauderdal MACNA, Adey lectured how the presence of turf algae seems to increase calcification/growth in stony corals. I have the paper.

 

[Steve Tyree]

Gregt,

Let me clarify what the fertilizer addition was about. I am only adding fertilizer to the Zonal Test Systems right now to simulate what happens when external food sources are adding into the system. As was correctly pointed out in the previous thread phase
1 research systems had very little if no external food added. So I am adding food now to see how the cryptic filtration model functions with excess organic input. Its also to respond to the - Hey he adds no food criticism :> I dont know anyone else adding a garden fertilizer that smells like garden compost to their reefs :> I also use the fertilizer as supplemental food to cryptic zones that are standalone and not connected to an exposed zone. They need food to grow the extra sponges and squirts.

Steve Tyree

 

[Cnidae]

Tagging along on this one becuase I'm currently designing a unit to replace my skimmer.

 

[gregt]

Steve,

Thanks for the clarification, but in just about everything I've read about ATS, there has been some mention of fuel for the algae, whether it be fertilizer, iron, etc... It seems that the algae will go through cycles of growth and crash if not supplimented. Doesn't sound like much fun to manage, nor does it sound like an optimum environment for a reef tank. I just think it's much to much trouble than it's worth even if it weren't for the problems with SPS growth. I'll clean a skimmer over that headache any day.

 

[Flatlander]

Greg, That would be algae filters and not scrubbers, I assume.

 

[Frick-n-Frags]

gregt, this whole thing defies logic Seriously, I am going to only feed enough to keep the macros from crashing. What if all the phosphorus was gone but there was plenty of nitrates to be consumed, the algae may crash anyway. I want to avoid this. My idea of feeding however, is several grams per month, several orders of magnitude below what seems to be the norm for feeding. But hey, we are the fattest country in the world, so why not our reefs too right??????????????????????

We have to balance the in and out, and part of that may be inorganic fertilizer addition (never did I think I would ever say this, holy sh!t! but in the realm of nutrient poor water, who knows.....)

understand my goal in one sentence:
Make aquarium generate its own zooplankton/bacterio-plankton/wtf ever the coral eats/ from algae etc grown in nutrient poor water to feed the corals without trashing the water. Doesn't that sound like a cool goal????

 

[gregt]

f-n-f,

That is a cool goal. Add a couple hundred thousand gallons of water and it might be attainable. I don't think it's remotely possible in a reef tank the proportions we are talking about.

For healthy growth, coral needs lots of light and lots of food. The best food is fresh food that is easy to catch (they are sessile after all). For me, the best way to accomplish these goals is to provide fresh food often and abundant to provide plenty of easy to catch nutrition. If you do this, you have a nutrient problem. In order to keep water quality under control, you also need heavy filtration. Heavier than an algae based system can provide (unless it is 10 times larger than the tank it supports).

 

[Bomber]

Well dang, I was doing just fine until Doug posted. Now I'm lost in the terminology again. Doug, what's the difference between a algae filter and a scrubber? Until now, I was thinking they were the same. Isn't a scrubber like a algae filter that moves around more?

Oh BTW, Steve try Dyna-Gro. It's local for you too.

Jerel

 

[LiquidShaneo]

Mark,

I couldn't convince you to email me that paper Adey presented on the calcification rate in his ATS based systems could I? My email is in my profile.

Bomber: an algae scrubber is the unit that Walter Adey patented where surging water is flowed over a mesh screen. On this screen very fine algal turfs grow and these turfs are scraped off every week or so. An algal filter would be like a refugium populated with macroalgae.

hth

Shane

 

[Frick-n-Frags]

gregt Have you read this whole thread? I told you I have lots of light and flow. Not sure what you mean "the best food is fresh food that they can catch?" As in fresh like it was zooplankton that just swam out of a clump of algae and got eaten, or fresh like you ground up a substitute diet soup that you put in before it spoiled. I'll stick with the zoos and bacteria food. Live just seems fresher than fresh ground.

Don't forget that I have been running this system similarly (ran skimmer, had less macros) for 8 years now, with minimal feeding and decent coral growth, so, in my little world, this is pretty normal. So, in your infinite wisdom, why is my stuff growing if I don't feed like you do and haven't for a really long time? Since xmas, I have only removed the skimmer and built up the algae populations otherwise everything is still the same.

Maybe once a month, I powder a pinch of flake food and make soup with some DT's and put some coral-accel into it. That isn't much.

I also have one other secret inorganic supply weapon: non RO-DI water which leaves all those very desireable hard water compounds (manganese, magnesium, calcium, and other light metals) which I'm sure help the algae.(don't worry, I got the assay from the water company before I did this)

I don't know what else to say except I have a very stable system and this last change is very minor. No nutrient sinks, no feeding pollution, no micro problems, plush macros of several types and no Caulerpa except a few meager scraps that barely hang on (C serrulata(sp))My NO3, PO4 have been zero for years now.

Maybe you are just shooting down my philosophy because you are trapped with an overfed, overfiltered system that you have to defend for some reason, or you can't conceive the possibility that there may be more than one way to do a reef, I don't know. I'm just looking for other people with algae scrubbers to see how they are doing, guys like Doug who are adding something of value to this thread by actually answering my questions.