Try again: Is anybody running an algae scrubber as primary filter.

Hey Doug, that was a question that I am curious about also: What is the difference between an algae scrubber and an algae filter. I was tending to use the terms interchangeably. I don't have a plate to scrape, but I can pull clumps out of the tank.

Can the whole system be an algae filter/scrubber or does it have to be in a certain place to be called an algae scrubber?
 
How do you guys think a skimmerless, algae filtered (scrubbed or filtered) system will handle a spawning event or some other catastrophic type event? Does an algae filter remove the chemical warfare compounds produced to destroy or inhibit growth of neighboring corals? Does a skimmer?
 
F-n-F,

You misunderstand my intent. I'm not attacking or defending. I'm just telling you what I don't like about this method. Being devils advocate so to speak.

As in fresh like it was zooplankton that just swam out of a clump of algae and got eaten
Couple problems with this. First, zooplankton are actually difficult for coral to catch. Second, they really aren't all that nutritious, it takes a lot more of them than it would a prepared diet. Third, the populations are extremely difficult to keep stable. They tend to reproduce like mad until they use all the available food and then crash, repeat....so you end up with lots of viable food at some times, and lots of dead, decaying matter at others.

So, in your infinite wisdom, why is my stuff growing if I don't feed like you do and haven't for a really long time?
Never claimed to have infinite wisdom, I'm just telling you what makes sense to me. I also never said that nothing else will work. Actually, I never even said that I do things that way myself, although that is what I aim for.

I also have one other secret inorganic supply weapon: non RO-DI water which leaves all those very desireable hard water compounds (manganese, magnesium, calcium, and other light metals) which I'm sure help the algae.(don't worry, I got the assay from the water company before I did this)
What happens when they change the water quality and don't tell you? It happens all the time. Sometimes for short periods, sometimes permanently. Probably won't be a problem, but it would worry me. Again, it seems like you are adding nutrients to fuel a filter thats purpose is to remove nutrients. Just sounds counter-intuitive to me.

I'm just looking for other people with algae scrubbers to see how they are doing, guys like Doug who are adding something of value to this thread by actually answering my questions.
I guess the only answers to your questions should be "Yes, it will work perfectly, and you will have no problems."

I think scot has raised some excellent questions. Please don't take what I have said, or his questions as combative. The purpose for my posts (and I presume scots as well) are to keep you thinking about the pros and cons, not to rain on your parade. I'm not trying to talk anybody out of anything, as you said, there are different ways of doing things.
 
Understood greg, and it does add to the width of the discussion. I wanted to do more reading than typing so I was getting a little frustrated. :rolleyes: I was really just hoping for more "how it went or didn't go" stories about algae scrubbers rather than theories about why this won't work. Dendro wasn't happy with his for a reason,and plant toxins will haunt the back of my mind, nutrient starved crash may be imminent to think about. There are a lot of red flags up here and I wanted to hear all of those too, not just the happy stories, but things regarding algae. I can make this not work a slew of ways all by my ignorant self, that isn't the problem :D.
You guys just have to get off the heavy feeding thing, it ain't gonna happen in this setup.

But I really do appreciate the time y'all have put in. Anymore algae scrubber stories out there?

Greg, you'll like my new system at the new house I am starting. It is going to be heavily automated, DSB, auto water makeup (RO-DI because the water sucks at the new house unlike Lake Erie water where I am now)
The new setup will be tweaked specifically for maxxing coral growout. And I can still keep this present system going to explore my ecclectic theories.

So save your last laugh for when I am in the DSB newbie corner, lost, asking really low level questions :D (seriously, at that point I will be leaning heavily on all of you heavy feed/heavy filter and DSB folks for your experiences)
 
Gee, did I read this whole thread too? I see Shane has explained the diff between a scrubber and filter. I have an algae filter then.
 
Frick,

FWIW, I think heavy feed / heavy filter and DSB is a bad combination. :D

I have an algae filter then.

Hmmm, that really is different. That is the source of a lot of my confusion on the thread.
 
ROTFL you guys are too much :D

OK, I think I've got it now.
A algae filter uses algae that you harvest to remove things from the water.
A algae scrubber uses algae that you harvest to remove things from the water.
One is just more mechanical than the other. j/k LOL

Seriously, I got the jest of it!

First, zooplankton are actually difficult for coral to catch.
True

Second, they really aren't all that nutritious
True

Third, the populations are extremely difficult to keep stable.
True

How do you guys think a skimmerless, algae filtered (scrubbed or filtered) system will handle a spawning event or some other catastrophic type event?
Bomb! It's even hard to handle with everything online.
 
Thanks Shane. Thats about it in a nutshell.

Jerel, Yes, both use algae. Yes, both are algae filters. Yes, both methods use the harvest of algae.
But, there is a difference between a sump full of sand & calerpa and a scrubber screen. The flow is different, the types of algae is different, the method of harvest is different, but I suppose they are both algae filters. :D

Here is one difference. I was running a sump with sandbed & calerpa. The crap went sexual on me & turned my tank into a green pea soup. That cant happen to my scrubber. :D

Scot, I can try answer from my experience only. First I always have & still do, run carbon. So I see nothing being added from my scrubber yet.

As for its ability to handle a major event, I am with Jerel on this one. What can? Several methods are needed, including large water changes. From my limited scrubber experience & long time skimmer experience, the scrubber is removing as much or more than my skimmer.

How many tanks have you guys seen with algae problems, that are skimmer based? Lots, correct? So what makes a skimmer such a fool proof method? I had a very seasoned tank and years of experience. I still had some algae growth with my system. So I figure what the hey.

I am coming from a different view here though. I, unlike some skimmerless aquarists, still believe in skimmers & their use. Like I said mine sits ready. Perhaps as mentioned earlier, why limit yourself to a single way. Thats likely the method I will follow. Heck, my skimmer only uses 55 watts and the Euroreef is fool proof to look after. When on vacation I can just shut it down & let the scrubber do the work.

I also agree with Greg on the ease of using a skimmer versus my scrubber. Although regular dumping of the skimmer cup is not required with the scrubber, the care of both is about the same. Look at the pics of behind my tank. How much room does my scrubber take up.:eek1: Granted, if my tank was a normal shape & my scrubber was not a smashed up mess, it could sit on the tank in its designed fashion.

I have used everything since my undergravels & canisters in the early 80,s so I am open to any form of filtration.:D

FWIW, I cant justifiy a direct comparision between my tank now & before, as I have removed the sandbed. This could be having an effect on the tank one way or the other, also.:D
 
Jerel, and others,

Even if zooplankton is hard to catch and not very nutritious I would think an algae scrubber, or refugium would be producing much more than just zooplankton. Wouldn't there be lots of different types of microplankton, protozoans, bacterioplankton, etc. and all their associated eggs, sperm, larvae, fecal pellets, etc.

Dan
 
Jerel and others,
Scrubbers and sumps full of Caulerpa seem to achieve the same thing, but a scrubber is different in many ways. When you're dealing with turf algae over Caulerpa, you are dealing with an entirely different beast. Turf alga are very very nutrient competitive alga. They'll go to town on your nutrient levels, believe me. The neat thing about them is, that they're growth rates can adapt to the change in feeding/stocking levels quickly. As for yellowing compounds being released into the water, that only becomes a problem when the reefkeeper gets lazy about scraping the screen. Growing turf algae is a bit more of a science than Caulerpa. They do best when exposed to both wet and dry environments repeatedly(think about the stuff growing on pier pilings). They also grow the fastest when kept short. Think about the tangs, snails, damsels constantly mowing algae turfs down on a reef. To co-evolve with this kind of grazing, turf algae have adapted to grow very quickly and uptake nutrients very quickly(otherwise they'd be toast). As the algae grows longer without grazing, the growth slows considerably. Thus nutrient uptake slows as well. Essentially, as long as you are diligent about scraping the screen(mimicking aggressive grazing), you'll have one heck of a nutrient uptake machine. But if you don't scrape diligently: an unmaintained ATS is about as effective as a skimmer that hasn't been cleaned. And yes, yellowing will occur if you don't scrape regularly(think Smithsonian, those ATS's would not get scraped for months at a time, hence why the reef went to hell). So the criticisms about ATS's only occur if the unit/algae is not maintained properly. And on that note, I'd wonder how well a skimmed tank would do if the skimmer wasn't cleaned for several months.

Caulerpa simply can't compete with turf algae. Furthermore, Caulerpa has other associated downsides. To get the same amount of nutrient uptake from Caulerpa against a given turf screen size, you'd have to have a lot more caulerpa and a bigger refugium/algae filter. Doug has already mentioned the risks about Caulerpa going sexual as well. Furthermore, as long as you maintain a turf screen, the turfs will not colonize your display tank. I can't say the same for Caulerpa, and have always needed a tang to keep the caulerpa in the display tank in check. But that's just my personal experience with Caulerpa.

Another fundamental difference between a refugium/Caulerpa filter and an ATS, is that critters like pods are not encouraged to grow in an ATS. In a fuge/caulerpa filter they are. By allowing pods to graze on the turfs, you are not exporting the nutrients. The grazing from pods simply reintroduces those nutrients to the reef tank. That is why a monthly freshwater dip is recommended for the turf screen. Again, they are both algae filters, but they are entirely different beasts. You have to approach them differently.

My point is this. Skimming is popular, and people often spend a good chunk of change for the super-skimmers(becketts) to get the best nutrient removal, right? The more you can export, the more you can feed and help your corals grow. Plus the more powerful the skimmer, the less chance of algae problems, etc.

Ok, so let's apply the same attitude towards algae filtration. Caulerpa works, but turfs are much much more efficient at nutrient uptake. Comparing Caulerpa to turfs is like comparing an airstone skimmer to a beckett skimmer. So, as more and more people accept the benefits of incorporating algae growth into their filtration methodologies(like caulerpa in the sump), and add to that the desire for bigger, better, more powerful... I simply hope the trend will got the same way. That eventually, people will want to incorporate something along the lines of an ATS into their system. Unfortunately, it's much easier to put a light over the sump and dump some caulerpa in, than it is to create an intertidal surge area for turfs to grow. ;) And 'that's the rub'. I hope to see Adey lighten up on the patents, or at least help encourage more people/companies to build ATS units. But I get the feeling that will not happen.

Fwiw, I love skimmers. And with my ATS systems, I always felt good about the fact that if one of my clams decided to spawn, I could hook up one of the skimmers in the closet to help remove the stuff if I had to. But I also enjoyed seeing the proliferation of life in the ATS tank without the skimmer. I had to see it with my own eyes, but yes indeed, the diversity in my ATS tank was much richer than it was in my reef that was skimmed alongside a refugium. Sponge growth alone was phenomenal. And I am not exaggerating when I say I usually had a few creepy crawlies on my arm when I was fiddling in the tank. And no matter how much food I dumped into it, I never saw any negative side effects. Like Eric B., I even began feeding insane quantities to the tank just to see what would happen. The only thing I noticed was that my fish were getting fatter!:) I know Shimek believes that a skimmer will not remove pods and other active critters, but I was simply amazed at how much life developed in the ATS tank.

Shane,

I'll dig it up and scan it for you.
 
Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve got a few comments on a couple statements

ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œSo, in your infinite wisdom, why is my stuff growing if I don't feed like you do and haven't for a really long time?ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ The answer is simple you donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t have any demanding corals. From all the postââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve seen of yours you seem to be mainly focused on stony corals, in my opinion one of the least demanding for secondary food other than zooxanthellae. Try a food demanding coral and watch it die if you donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t feed heavily.

ââ"šÂ¬Ã…"œIn order to keep water quality under control, you also need heavy filtration. Heavier than an algae based system can provide (unless it is 10 times larger than the tank it supports).ââ"šÂ¬Ã‚ Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m wondering whatââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢s a heaver filtration than a scrubber; Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m sure a skimmer is not. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ve owned 5 different skimmers and none of them were able to keep up with my feeding. I only used my ATS for about 4 months but in that time I was able to cut my water changes from 1 week to every 2 weeks.

In my opinion if your not going to feed heavily there is no need for you to pursue algae filtration. I donââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t think the benefits would be visible and you may end up with algae crashes because of the low nutrients. If you feed heavily and our oceans sure have a ton of food in them then a scrubber would be ideal. I took my scrubber off because I had to set it up all funky in my sump and couldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t fully close my doors to my stand. Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m building a new one that will fit right in and wonââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t make any noise when the screen dumps. It will also be a two-part unit. One part will be the scrubber and below it and off to the side will be an area to grow mangroves. Theyââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll be growing in a setting with a DSB and some LR. Once I have it setup Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll be working on my surge devices and Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll have a non-traumatic pump feeding them.

As far as scrubbers being able to handle a spawning event, in my opinion your corals should take care of this for you. Chemical warfare in your system should be to such a minimum that it shouldnââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢t matter. If you have a huge chemical warfare going on in your system you should fix your problem instead of relying on filtration to take care of it for you.
 
Thanks Jerel! :)

I hope I didn't sound too biased. Fwiw, I think there's many ways to have a successful reef. Heck, in the same room I had my ATS system on one end and my heavily skimmed/DSB/refugium reef tank on the other end of the room. :D They both did great.
 
I agree, great post Mark. Explained it better than I.:D

I hope everyone does not get the opinion I am algae based filtration biased also. I am just experimenting with the scrubber. I may well give it to my friend at an lfs to run on his show tank. This is because of the damage to its body.

I may also move my stock to another tank before it settles in. I am thinking of a standard 180, with high flow, a sump, my skimmer, a shallow/course sandbed. It will be completely open top & lit with a pair of vertical 400 watt pendants. {yea, I know I am a glass top pusher regarding UV, :D }

My 170 may become home to many assorted goldfish in the winter & in the pond in the summer.:eek2: So, as seen, I am not a follower of one belief only.
 
Gregt,

I see. Fertilizer for algal growths. I actually tried adding the 'Micro Algae Grow' product from Florida Aqua Farms to one of my zonal systems. Stopped that real fast. If you want to stimulate algal growths, that is a very good product. Basically a good inorganic fertilizer for algae. Not what I need.

On a side note- anyone know if mud based sediments (soil) leach humic compounds ? Would very fine sand (oolitic) not leach potential humic compounds ? Looking for a good substrate material for a cryptic sediment bed.

Steve Tyree
 
Awesome info and opinions!!

This is getting more encouraging. My goal is to get macro populations established in most of my tanks. I have decided to encourage more diversity after meditating on what is turning up in these two threads. (ie stop pulling out all the Halimeda even though IMO it is as fickle as Caulerpa)) I am also getting a cool Dictyota-looking clump of stuff(phaeophyta for sure) and some shorter wiry red algae that I will now try to propagate around.

From Mark's killer explanation, I think a micro based turf scrubber really is a "canned" filter, very controlled and matches the nutrient load quickly. I sure don't want that even though it is a b@d@ss filter! I want to stay below the microalgae nutrient threshold, so an ATS wouldn't function properly for me at all.

DKKA, I really think that is what my coral live on too, bacteria on garbage and all the different zooplankton flying around my tanks.
[I refer to any micro-animal life as zooplankton, probably confusing or incorrect, but eggs or spawns are zooplankton to me, in addition to the actual little critters.]

Also, a spawning isn't a catastrophic event by definition, especially if the diversity is there so no one species can blow the system away. And when there are a million little filter mouths, they all get fat that day. But if someone throws a pound of flake food in my system, well then c-ya bye, I'm toast.

I have noticed that 5 minutes after I take a stick and stir the dust in the corner of the SPS tank and kick it up into the jet stream, all the Acros that are usually closed during the day open up to eat. EB saw Cataphyllias deep down in still, funky water, super show color, (ST would drool :D). That was his only conclusion was they were consuming mostly bacteria/detritus life. I would be willing to bet even the big meat corals eat mostly little stuff even though they can handle bigger stuff.

BTW I haven't watched my, Euphyllias, Blastomussa, Caulastreas, Galaxia, Hydnophoras or Turbinarias die yet. Quite the opposite. LPS are the same thing as SPS IMS (In My System) and they all eat the same thing.
 
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