Tube feeding success - regal angel

[Dmorty217]

Steve Krogh from DD told me, they use a silicone tube like the one I have in this picture (between still sealed syringe and pipette):

That would be in the range of airline tubing. I feel that might be a bit too much.
But the 0.085 tube may be too flimsy.
I feel the 1/8 silicone tube may be best in softness yet stiff enough to actually work.

I had planned to start on Sunday, but my wife planned up my time differently.
Hopefully the Tricaine-S will arrive tomorrow.

I have a few more questions:

1. Is the STAT used directly or diluted, if diluted at which ratio?

2. What is the ideal dosage of the Tricaine-S? Would it be possible to make base solution so it can be measured in ml?

3. which milligram scale on amazon would actually be worth the money.?I've worked with quite a few lab grade precision scales and everything remotely trustworthy was well above $1k.

You dilute the Stat with enough pedialyte so you can actually push the Stat thru the cath, no real way to tell you how much just play around with it until you get the right consistency. As for how much tricaine it depends on how much water your doing the bath in and how large the fish is. It didn't take much at all to sedate the goldfish I used. In a smaller Tupperware container is what I used. Just mix a little at a time (.1-.2) until the desired sedation level is achieved. Have a another container to put the fish in with clean water in it to let the fish recover from the sedation otherwise the fish will just get blown around the tank by the powerheads until recovered possibly injuring it. There are plenty of smoke shops in Cali, you should have no problem picking up a digital scale that will suffice for this need. You will be dosing the tricaine by repetition and sight not weighing it out. ( suppose you could weigh it but each fish will vary for how much tricaine is enough)

 

[ColtonMeng]

@Dmorty -

I'm going to be bringing in a Regal as soon as a Red Sea is available on Liveaquaria. It will be in a 220gallon tank by itself for the first 6 weeks.

If it does not start eating, I may enlist your services should you be willing to do a days worth of traveling. Finalizing my private pilot license and could swing down to Dayton Int'l to grab you for the afternoon, if you'd be up for a cessna flight up to Cleveland to plug a feeding line into a fish.

I don't anticipate this happening for at least a month (if ever, I hope).

Similar to Throewer, I'm not too interested in losing a pricey fish, even with a guarantee on it. Hopefully I won't have any feeding issues - counting on you, Rod's!

 

[Vinny Kreyling]

Years back I had a friend that used to squish fresh clam into a small rock them put it back in the tank to get angels feeding.

 

[albano]

Finalizing my private pilot license and could swing down to Dayton Int'l to grab you for the afternoon, if you'd be up for a cessna flight up to Cleveland ...

Sooo, is he jumping into the Cessna with just you, or with you and your instructor.

 

[ThRoewer]

According to FedEx the Pentaires package with the Tricaine-S was delivered this morning - hopefully to the correct address :debi:
I will try to do a practice run with the goldfish tonight. If they survive it I will start tube feeding the regal Tuesday.

Years back I had a friend that used to squish fresh clam into a small rock them put it back in the tank to get angels feeding.

That works only for fish that actually look for food and pick on the rocks. This regal has a problem and shows no interest in food at all. It just hangs there and watches as the two smaller regals chase for food and stuff themselves.

Sooo, is he jumping into the Cessna with just you, or with you and your instructor.

A Cessna with a rookie pilot? I would advise against it or you may end up like Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens and "The Big Bopper". Small privat planes with hobby pilots crash way too often. Just this weekend one came down in Santa Rosa. And two days before christmas one crashed in Castro Valley. And two months before that, one crash landed in Lake Tahoe. And that's just here in Northern California.

 

[ColtonMeng]

A Cessna with a rookie pilot? I would advise against it or you may end up like Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens and "The Big Bopper". Small privat planes with hobby pilots crash way too often. Just this weekend one came down in Santa Rosa. And two days before christmas one crashed in Castro Valley. And two months before that, one crash landed in Lake Tahoe. And that's just here in Northern California.

Agreed - it was just an offer to save the time, given I'm closer than California but still a three hour drive away.

I hear you on GA VFR aircraft coming down all too often - I've read my share of NTSB reports on CFIT and other causes, which are all the more prevalent among low hour pilots.

Me saying "I'll get you back safe and sound" only means so much, I suppose... but it certainly would be appreciated to save a life (the fish), should it come to it!

To be honest, my 70 hours thus far have been quite spot on!

 

[pktech]

Maybe you should just bring the fish with you & have Derek give it a shot, lol ...

 

[Dmorty217]

Not sure how I missed the plane conversation! Ha I would be more than happy to help walk you thru what to do. Even if I did make the trip it isn't like you do it once and you're in the clear. It can easily take 20-30 days of force feeding everyday, twice a day to get a fish to turn the corner. It's no small undertaking like it sounds like when being described.

 

[ThRoewer]

Everything got delayed because the wife decided the house needed to be cleaned for Chinese New Year :headwallblue:

But I got a step further:

I build a holding cage and caught the fish. It shares it with my last YBR (separated by a Plexiglas sheet).

I hope I can do the first tube feeding tonight.

 

[alprazo]

Good luck. Shoot me an email if you have any immediate questions.

I'll mail you another angiocath tomorrow so you don't hurt your fish

 

[ThRoewer]

Let's see how it goes.

BTW: do you think sedation will always be required or only in the beginning? I could imagine that there may be a residue buildup of the narcotic over time that could become harmful to the fish. The usage guidelines state for use on food fish "... requires a 21 day withdrawal period prior to release or harvest ..."
Did you sedate your regal for every feeding?

 

[alprazo]

I did for my regal but it really depends on the fish. I have a friend that did daily tube feeds on a small 12 inch shark for over a year before it started eating on its own. I doubt there is a harmful buildup. The wash out is an FDA rule I imagine. Similar to antibiotics. Btw, the half life is between 1.5 and 4 hours so therefore it is essentially gone in a day. Sedate until you get the hang of it, set everything up and It can be done < 10 seconds. Then try it with the fish awake. It you can get the tube into the mouth, you will be fine. The problem is that the fish will often lock its jaw closed and forcing the tube will harm it.

 

[ThRoewer]

So I did the test run with a goldfish.

For the Tricaine-S I used a scale from the local drug paraphernalia shop. The best they had was one with a 0.01 g resolution (which means 0.1 g actual accuracy). I tried to get 50 mg/L but am not sure I actually got it right. The goldfish was never fully out.

I tried the 1/8" silicone tubing, but don't think I actually hit the stomach - the STAT came all out of the goldfish's gills. So I switched to the pipette tip and that may have worked, but with the fish's oral cavity already full of STAT it's hard to tell. There was also not really anything to feel.

The goldfish recovered quickly and seems to be OK. Let's see how he does tomorrow.

The regal seems either to be quite weak or it really has a swim bladder issue. It sometimes has trouble to maintain its upright position when hit by flow.

 

[humaguy]

This is one of the most important threads I have read on RC and am surprised it has not been stickied...great stuff!

 

[Dmorty217]

The fish shouldn't be fully unresponsive, just sedated enough so they don't flop around while trying to insert the cath into the stomach. When I used the Tricaine I did it by visually dosing because I found it extremely difficult to use a scale and get a accurate reading.

 

[Rare Angels]

amazing thread! I believe it should be a sticky also!

 

[alprazo]

The fish shouldn't be fully unresponsive, just sedated enough so they don't flop around while trying to insert the cath into the stomach. When I used the Tricaine I did it by visually dosing because I found it extremely difficult to use a scale and get a accurate reading.

I agree, I start with a low measured dose and titrate until adequate sedation.

If you want any chance at saving the regal, you need to start the feeds immediately. If you puncture the stomach - which is difficult with an angiocath, at least the fish quickly dies instead of wasting away with the suffrage of starvation.

 

[ginpang]

What he said [emoji1369]

 

[ThRoewer]

The goldfish survived and seems to be fine. I'm just not sure if I got any food into it's stomach.

The regal feeding is on this weekend, starting tonight. Last night I was just too tired to do another fish. Also I want to be able to observe the fish for a while after the initial feedings.

The feeding is one issue but the fish clearly has another issue with its swim bladder control. The second feeding I will try a boiled and liquefied pea like suggested by LA.

 

[Dmorty217]

The goldfish survived and seems to be fine. I'm just not sure if I got any food into it's stomach.

The regal feeding is on this weekend, starting tonight. Last night I was just too tired to do another fish. Also I want to be able to observe the fish for a while after the initial feedings.

The feeding is one issue but the fish clearly has another issue with its swim bladder control. The second feeding I will try a boiled and liquefied pea like suggested by LA.

sinking or floating? If floating you can use a syringe and relieve the problem thru the anus. There should be a video or two of the guys at the Long Island aquarium doing just that. I believe Yalcin videoed it being done to one of Andrews fish... In case force feeding wasn't daunting enough!!