Tunze saftey connector question

[SCreeferGuy]

Have searched and read other posts, but am still a little confused on one item:

If using a Tunze powerhead (6055 or 6095) and the saftey connector attached to a gel battery do you ALSO need a Tunze controller (7095 or 7096) for the battery backup to work or not..? Or can you just hook up the powerhead to the saftey connector/battery alone?

I plan to use an Apex system and understand in power failure the safety connector will not function to keep pump on because the power will be out to the Apex...but want to be sure that I DON'T need a Tunze controller just to have a powerhead work (with the saftey connector) outside the Apex system for my backup.

Would rather not pay for a Tunze controller and the Apex if possible, but need a battery backup plan to last 6-8 hours worse case before I can get home and hook up the generator.

 

[rvitko]

The issue will be that the Apex needs to be backed up as well or the pump disconnected from the Apex. If the Apex is off, regardless of the pump being backed up, it will not work as the controller will not be sending any signal. The reason the Tunze controller works is it is powered from the pump, if the pump is backed up, so is the controller.

 

[SCreeferGuy]

Thanks for the quick reply Roger - but what I am planning is to keep a Tunze pump out of the Apex system altogether as my backup. I will have 4 pumps, so the other three will be run through the Apex.

So I guess the real question is: can I run the backup Tunze pump off the Apex completely without having to have a Tunze controller? I understand the pump will not be controlled then, but am just trying to be clear about the options. I like the Tunze pumps, but am just not too excited about having to buy a Tunze controller ($$) just to be able to make use of the saftey connector...buying a Vortech with their battery system may be cheaper in the end (but I have not done the math on that one yet...)

 

[rvitko]

That will work fine, the pump does not need a controller to work. You can either use no controller, a Tunze controller or back up the Apex as well and in all cases it will work.

 

[ska d]

You can easily just use the apex to do it all depending on how many outlets your going to need. In my set up I'm using 2 eb8 power bars with the apex controlling two tunzes. My apex is backed up as well as one of the eb8s. The one that isn't backed up has all the equipment that would normally stay off during a power outage. Return pump, heater etc... The backed up eb8 has my tunzes and smaller items like dosing pumps. During a power outage my apex is programmed to shut everything down except for the tunes which also switch to a different profile running at a lower speed to save energy. The reason I have it set up like this is because my backup battery ( which is just a ups) can't handle then large load that return pumps and heaters pull. Plus remember if your going to want email alerts your router needs to be backed up as well. In my case I have my router on a seperate ups, and the apex unit itself is powered by the eb8 that is backed up. I use the other eb8 to monitor for power outages. You could do it with one eb8 and use the power monitor feature of the apex, but you backup will have to be able to handle the load produced by your pumps. If your using a marine battery backup system (which is the recommended way to go) then you can probably run your whole system.

 

[SCreeferGuy]

ska d - that sounds a lot like what I am trying to do...what kinds of UPS do you use? And do you know how much power the eb8 uses to run the Apex itself? Trying to figure out how long the UPS would last under those conditions...

Thanks!

 

[uwish]

sorry I am missing something. If you look at the safety switch is it not designed to engage from a second power supply if the primary fails? I don't necessarily seem to be able to understand why it wouldn't work regardless of being connected to an APEX or not? Would it not sense the loss of power and then hit the backup battery (for example)?

I guess I am implying that the Tunze pump wouldn't know what it's plugged into, just if there was power or not?

 

[rvitko]

The issue is that the Apex is not backed up, our controller is powered by the pump, if the pump has power, so does the controller. With other controllers, the controller has its own power supply, unless the controller is backed up, the communication is lost and the pump remains off.

 

[uwish]

I understand that, but that doesn't get me any further ahead. If the controller looses power, then the outlet looses power, then the safety switch would then kick to the alternative power source.

At least it should, so it wouldn't matter if the controller (say Apex) itself doesn't have a backup power supply. The safety switch relay should detect no power and then switch to the battery.

 

[aleithol]

Roger is right -- as always. Let me try to help with where one of your conclusions is a bit off.

If the controller looses power, then the outlet looses power, then the safety switch would then kick to the alternative power source...

True.

(I won't compound this with more obtuse situations where your Energy Bar could retain power independent of the Apex controller if the EB were say on another circuit, had it's own UPS backup, or if your controller or VDM had a firmware/physical failure of some sort.)​

...so it wouldn't matter if the controller (say Apex) itself doesn't have a backup power supply...

False.

...The safety switch relay should detect no power and then switch to the battery.

True.

===

I'll try to summarize another way: Issue in your scenario is that as long as the Tunze Pump has power (via Safety Connector or however), but the control signal to that pump is physically connected to the Apex that itself has no power or is not functioning for whatever reason, the pump will NOT get a signal from a controller to it turn on. The design of the Tunze Pump is such that in that scenario, if you physically disconnect the control wire from the Apex to the pump that still has power from another source, the pump will start running at a steady state 100% (which could blow the dickens out of your tank if you were not expecting that to happen).

Once I ultimately figured out those two little points for myself, they ended up causing me to substantially rework my power-outage design. You'll find another thread on this further down in this subforum from last year that may provide some additional points of view and info to help in your design. My posts there e.g. include validating these same points with Roger and Neptune gurus, document the physical tests I performed, and the design choices I ended up making.

Good luck.

 

[rvitko]

Thank you, Bert!

 

[uwish]

ok, now I understand...thanks for the clarification, it was the one piece I was missing regarding 'HOW' the controller / pump would react under a power loss scenario.

good to know.