Utter Chaos or?

[Golden Angel]

How do you know these are really rare???? :lmao: You know another store just received the same exact polyps right? Still as "rare" as you think? You nor myself have no idea if/when more of these are coming in. How do you know there isn't 10-50 large colonies of this waiting to come in from the exporters right this second?

"I can guarantee the people that are trading these high end zoas got into this hobby before the "selling" aspect ever occurred to them. It's good for the hobby. It drives sales in hardware, and I'm sure the people that are really into it didn't just get their tank last week." Good for the hobby? I'd beg to differ. Good for the seller is more appropriate. Don't you think it would be better for the hobby if frags were more reasonably priced? Wouldn't more people have money for things like better lights, bigger tanks, better equipment? Not just the people selling $200 frags?

"It still seems that you're just upset someone else was willing to pay more for something than you were." Um no. It's the same thing as if I saw a Toyota dealer charging $100,000 for a $35k Toyota Camry. But it is brand new model!! right? No one has it. :spin1: What would you think of a Toyota Dealer that did that? Would you say good for them? So if someone paid $100k for a Camry...... does that make all Camry's worth $100k too? Clearly they are, if I follow some's coral pricing logic.


And don't ever tell me or anyone to keep this to themselves. EVER!!! If I and others want to discuss this, than we shall. If you don't like it and it bothers you, I suggest you not read it and keep your feelings to yourself.

Buying expensive corals is a risk. The buyers know the risk. They know that there is a chance that colonies will start coming in. Do you really think the newbies are the ones paying $200/polyp. No way. It is the seasoned pros that are willing to drop that kind of money. Not only that but it's not like the poorest people are out using their lunch money to buy these corals. It's people with money to spare. You don't need to defend the person buying it. They want it and nothing you do can stop them from buying it. Why do you feel the need to "protect" others from spending their own hard earned money on something that you think isn't worth it? I bet if I walked around your house right now I would find some things I would think you shouldn't have purchased. Get off of your high horse.

What makes you think there aren't more reasonably priced frags out there to be purchased? So because someone is selling a zoa for $200/polyp others are forced to buy it and all of a sudden all $10 frags cease to exist? Your statements are very simple minded and weak. If a Toyota dealer was charging $100,000 for a $35,000 Camry, they would go out of business. Are you forced to buy it because that is the asking price? No.

You seem to think that everyone else in this hobby is a moron except you. They are going to see a nice coral with a high price tag and they will somehow get suckered into buying it. We do have brains you know. If I'm not sure of the value of something but I really want it, I will research it. If I can't find it anywhere and I think the asking price is fair, I will buy it. You seem like you are either very self righteous, or very jealous of things you can't afford. Neither trait is good.

 

[Golden Angel]

Don't get me wrong. There are certain things that some sellers on here do that I think should be stopped. Such as purchasing frags from others on here just to turn around and sell them for more money. Someone tried to do that to me on Friday Night, but I won't mention who. If you are trying to run a business on here, you should be advertising.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

My bad, correction made.

 

[TeebD]

My concern is that although this is a hobby, and many have different motivations to get into a hobby, this is profiteering off of collecting and breeding animals. Not barbie dolls or baseball cards. Go read the selling post. How many times does the seller state these are sooooo limited, sooooo rare, just released? Then you have Isseym328 saying they already had those awhile back. If that is the case then they aren't just released, obviously. On top of that, notice the massive amounts of obvious photoshopping being done to the photo in the seller's thread.

My issue with this is two-fold. One is that these selling practices are shady at best. The other is that we are not dealing with toys or manufactured collectibles. This hobby deals with living beings. If these animals (and let us always remember that these are living creatures) are so rare and limited, then why is this hobbyist is slicing and dicing them up into very fragile one polyp frags? One polyp frags have a far smaller chance of survival than a larger frag of multiple polyps. So they are already risking these animals' lives by cutting them up multiple times, and shipping them all over the country, in order to turn a profit.

The reason more hobbyists don't have these "premier" corals is because of the highly restrictive pricing sellers levy, thereby forcing their availability to be limited only by high price points. If the prices were lowered, then everyone would be able to enjoy them. But at some point, someone (who undoubtedly is no more an authority than Scoobie Doo on the rarity of corals) decided to say that what they have is rare, never-before-seen, limited edition, from the line of the kings, and charged insane amounts of money. And someone will buy, only because it costs a lot. There will always be consumers buying silly things at exorbitant prices, just because they can then say how much they paid for it, because it is so rare, never-before-seen, limited edition, from the line of the kings.

You seem to have a problem with the collecting and breeding of livestock. You're in the wrong in hobby. How is this any different than dogs, cats, reptiles etc. From the posts I've seen especially with zoa in question, they were just recently "officially" named. So yes, there may have been UC back in the stone age, but it was just identified and named. You're surprised that sellers try to enhance their photos to get the best out of them? Have you ever read a magazine or watched TV? This is common practice when trying to represent anything being sold. Do you think car manufacturers take a disposable camera out to shoot the pics of the cars for their advertisements? I understand if it's shopped to where it's not an accurate representation of the coral, but from what I can see, most people are trying to compensate for a bad camera, shot, angle, etc. I don't think people are turning Eagle Eye's into Blue Hornets via PS.

I dont' understand how asking "market value" and tweaking photos is shady. It's basic marketing. Once again you complain about live animal trade. If you don't agree with people keeping pets, you're in the wrong hobby. These corals are being sold as single polyps due to price, the same reason my wife doesn't have a 10kt diamond ring. I'm sure any of the sellers would be willing to sell 4-5 polyps at a time, but I doubt many people would shell out the cash for it.

Once again, you think it is the sellers that are dictating pricing, they're not. This is a benefit of a free market and why you don't have to pay $75 for a hamburger at McDonalds. I'm sure they're be more than happy to jack up prices 10 fold. Your last statement sums up my point. You don't like the fact that someone else is paying $200/polyp keeping the price up to a point where you're not comfortable buying them.

 

[kellyjn]

"Buying expensive corals is a risk. The buyers know the risk. They know that there is a chance that colonies will start coming in. Do you really think the newbies are the ones paying $200/polyp. No way. It is the seasoned pros that are willing to drop that kind of money."

Who is paying the $200? I can't say for sure it's not "newbies" and neither can you. I can just say for sure... NOT ME.

Imagine if enough people said that....NOT ME. What happens? Price drops, seller doesn't go out of business, he just adjusts price to something REASONABLE, buyer gets a coral at a better price. Beautiful thing right?

I imagine the ones purchasing them are the same ones who sell other $200 or whatever ridiculous amount $$ frags (seasoned pros as you call them) :lmao:. I definitly think there is a group of people that want to keep coral prices as high as possible.

Do they really know there is a risk identical colonies could start coming in? I don't think so, as I think most were purchased being a "rare" "collector" "LE" "whateveryouwanttocallit" piece HENCE $200/polyp price. Tell me the reaction of people when you tell them their $200 polyp only sells for $50 or $25 now. I work hard for my money, I don't know about you.

AH, I see now, you are selling red hornets Golden Angel. How would you feel if those were selling for $5 tomorrow? Would those still be so valuable to you? Honestly?

"What makes you think there aren't more reasonably priced frags out there to be purchased? So because someone is selling a zoa for $200/polyp others are forced to buy it and all of a sudden all $10 frags cease to exist? Your statements are very simple minded and weak. If a Toyota dealer was charging $100,000 for a $35,000 Camry, they would go out of business. Are you forced to buy it because that is the asking price? No. "

I think there should be alot more reasonable priced frags as I don't believe a polyp worth over $50-60 exists. Period. Look at LFS. They've existed for YEARS without selling a $200 polyp and will continue to do so.

You didn't really address the Camry thing though. What if that Toyota dealership found someone with cash to blow and was happy enough to pay $100k for that brand new Camry no one else has. Buyer is 100% happy paying that much. Sounding familiar now? Or should I just jump on the bandwagon and tell the people who want to tell the buyers that they got ripped off, how self rightous they are and they should just mind their own business. I mean clearly it is jealousy right? Your camry isn't worth 100K.

We shouldn't wave the flag here? We should just sit and allow it to go on?

"You seem to think that everyone else in this hobby is a moron except you. They are going to see a nice coral with a high price tag and they will somehow get suckered into buying it. We do have brains you know. If I'm not sure of the value of something but I really want it, I will research it. If I can't find it anywhere and I think the asking price is fair, I will buy it. You seem like you are either very self righteous, or very jealous of things you can't afford. Neither trait is good."

Self righteous......No. Believe me you got things way wrong there. I could shut my tank down right now, and I believe the reef industry will go on just fine without me.

Jealous....No. I just have morals and things I believe in, I guess. Like when something is being sold for a ridiculous amount of money, yes, I may say something. I still have that freedom correct?

 

[kellyjn]

"They are going to see a nice coral with a high price tag and they will somehow get suckered into buying it. We do have brains you know. If I'm not sure of the value of something but I really want it, I will research it. If I can't find it anywhere and I think the asking price is fair, I will buy it.

Oh yeah explain this........research. Do you think these new $200 polyps have been researched by the buyer?

Can anyone tell me if they like high light or low light? High flow or Low? Do they keep their color? How fast do they grow? ALL QUESTIONS NO ONE CAN ANSWER. Research.....pffft. Sure.

 

[kellyjn]

Double post

 

[Friday Night]

Golden, while I respect everyones right to their opinion, personal attacks and name calling won't be tolerated here my friend. The derogatory word used in your final paragraph, first sentence of post # 61 is way out of line. Those remarks will only get you into trouble with the mods here and possible sanctions. We don't do that here.

Mucho Reef

+1 Mucho. dont get me started.. my mouth is already filled with blood from biting my lip... watch your words golden.. i already have a "point" on my record for "speaking my mind" i dont need the mods to give me another one for making another person feel stupid...

thanks.

 

[TeebD]

Wow....where to start picking this apart.

"How do you know these are really rare???? :lmao: You know another store just received the same exact polyps right? Still as "rare" as you think? You nor myself have no idea if/when more of these are coming in. How do you know there isn't 10-50 large colonies of this waiting to come in from the exporters right this second?"

You can tell their rare simply based on price point. If 500 people were selling red hornets right now all at $200/polyp, there would be a giant increase in supply and a drop in demand. There wouldn't be 500 people willing to pay $200 polyp. Eventually someone would drop their price to $150 and the other 499 people wouldn't sell theirs. In order to compensate, other sellers would drop their price to $150. Then $150 would the going rate and you'd eventually run out of people willing to pay $150 and someone would drop the price to $100 and so on. This is very basic economics.

"Good for the hobby? I'd beg to differ. Good for the seller is more appropriate. Don't you think it would be better for the hobby if frags were more reasonably priced? Wouldn't more people have money for things like better lights, bigger tanks, better equipment? Not just the people selling $200 frags? "

How is this not good for the hobby? These sellers are purchasing frag tanks, lights, salt, above and beyond what a standard hobbyist would. I would bet a good portion of proceeds from this goes back into the hobby whether it's livestock, hardware etc. Yes, if people didn't spend as much on coral, then they could probably have a nicer tank. If gas was $0.01/gallon I could probably buy a third car. If food wasn't so expensive I could buy a nicer stove. That logic fails.

"Um no. It's the same thing as if I saw a Toyota dealer charging $100,000 for a $35k Toyota Camry. But it is brand new model!! right? No one has it. :spin1: What would you think of a Toyota Dealer that did that? Would you say good for them? So if someone paid $100k for a Camry...... does that make all Camry's worth $100k too? Clearly they are, if I follow some's coral pricing logic."

Yes, good for them. If Toyota can consistently sell Camry's at $100k, then guess what, the price of a Camry is now $100k. Once again, price is dictated by buyer, not seller. Do you think Toyota would say $100k is nice, but I really only want $35k for it? This is common with new release models. There were people lined up around block paying $40k for the new Camaro. I'll tell you what, determine a market rate for your entire tank and I'll offer you 1/10th of that. Will you do it just to ensure you don't "turn a profit"?

"And don't ever tell me or anyone to keep this to themselves. EVER!!! If I and others want to discuss this, than we shall. If you don't like it and it bothers you, I suggest you not read it and keep your feelings to yourself."

Please show me where I said this shouldn't be discussed or anything to that effect. I obviously have no problem with it being discussed since I am participating in the discussion.

 

[TeebD]

Golden, while I respect everyones right to their opinion, personal attacks and name calling won't be tolerated here my friend. The derogatory word used in your final paragraph, first sentence of post # 61 is way out of line. Those remarks will only get you into trouble with the mods here and possible sanctions. We don't do that here.

Mucho Reef

Mucho, not trying to start a fight, but did you read that sentence correctly? He was not calling her a moron or any other name for that matter. If the post was edited and there's something I didn't see, then I apologize, but I don't see anything out of line with what he said.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

MY APOLOGIES, I should have looked closely. My mistake GOLDEN, sorry.

 

[kellyjn]

TeedB,

First off, I'm male.

How does price have anything to do with rarity????? Seriously. You knew it was rare b/c of the price? You knew there weren't anymore in the ocean, exporter's, or store's holding areas,(or other reefers tanks) because it had a high price? How do you know a seller isn't sitting on 100 polyps right now?

Were you aware another store received the indentical polyps? How did that effect your view on the rarity, or did it?

Why does the price have to start at $200 for economics to take place though? Besides greed? Could it not take place at an original purchase price of $100 or $50? REAL Demand would have been the exact same, possibly higher as more people could afford it IMO.

Demand, is a funny, fuzzy thing when you bring internet forums into the equation IMO.

And I'm sorry that last comment wasn't towards you. It was directed towards others. I should have made that a seperate post.

 

[TeebD]

Kelly, sorry, I have 2 female friends named Kelly and always assume Kelly is a female. My bad.

Price is directly correlated with rarity. It's supply and demand, there could be someone with 100,000 polyps, but if they're not for sale, it doesn't come into the equation. Just because there is a surplus of something in the world, doesn't make it common in the market world. Look at Diamonds, they're expensive because they're considered rare, but every woman I know has at least 1 diamond, yet they're still much more expensive than CZ which is very similar. Yes, the available amount of polyps of UC for example is small. 20 stores probably have them, but that doesn't change the fact that they're not available for sale. Economics are what set the price at $200 not the other way around. If they would have started out at $50, the price would eventually be bid up to the $200 or higher depending on what other people are going to pay. If you want to blame someone for high prices, blame the buyers, not the sellers. Why wouldn't a seller accept more for something than less?

 

[kellyjn]

No worries.

I do hear what you are saying TeebB, and I do blame the buyers to a degree also.

Who said anything about bidding though? I was stating they outright sell them at that price.

Bidding is a funny fuzzy thing IMO. Wish ebay didn't take away the ability to see who exactly is bidding, and also what they have bid on in the past.

 

[Golden Angel]

+1 Mucho. dont get me started.. my mouth is already filled with blood from biting my lip... watch your words golden.. i already have a "point" on my record for "speaking my mind" i dont need the mods to give me another one for making another person feel stupid...

thanks.

So what you are saying is that you have no point that you can make without getting yourself into trouble. All that says is that you have no point. You have to use anger and hateful words to try to convince me that you are right. Sorry but that won't work.

 

[Golden Angel]

You people should read the nasty message I got from Friday Night. That dude is scary. He/she can dish it but they can't take it. I would really like to to know the motivation for someone like that to start a thread like this. They obviously sell lots of corals on here for a premium yet they bash others that do the same. I am all for defending an individuals right to offer something at whatever price they think it is worth but this is where it turns bad. Sounds like they are trying to keep the competition to a minimum. Nothing wrong with letting the market decide what something is worth but when you start blacklisting someone, that's when things go wrong.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

*****WARNING****this is a test of the Emergency Broadcast System.


I'm not the police, but I'm gonna say this loud and clear. I hate seeing threads locked whether I'm for what the threads is stating or against it, it doesn't matter. Free speech must prevail. EVERYBODY INVOLVED IN THIS THREAD NEEDS TO TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND PUMP THE BRAKES. If just ( ONE ) person complains to the mods about personal or private attacks, somebody is gonna get in some serious trouble here which could result in a total suspension of post privileges . The mods seldom if ever come here because we have done a great job of policing ourselves. SO IF YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING TO SAY, say it with respect so you won't get in trouble. It's happened many times before. Now everybody take a deep breath, touch gloves, go back to your neutral corner, and think before you make your next post. Cause if this gets ugly, it could be your last. Posting here is not a right, it's a privilege, and one can lose that right in a heartbeat.

Posting here is a right, not a privilege, and one can lose that right in a heartbeat. And that's not a threat, it's a fact.

Lets play nice and fair. Isn't that what we teach our children?

Mucho Reef

 

[russ13]

i would think it is very hard to say if a coral is rare or not when it first hits the market.2 months from now the wholesalers could be loaded with them.i hope that is the case because i would love to get my hands on some.and of corse the price will go down as people start to grow them in there tanks.the first purple hornets went for like 300 each.now you can get them for under 50.6 months from now the next hot paly will show up and we can start this all over again.

 

[TeebD]

No worries.

I do hear what you are saying TeebB, and I do blame the buyers to a degree also.

Who said anything about bidding though? I was stating they outright sell them at that price.

Bidding is a funny fuzzy thing IMO. Wish ebay didn't take away the ability to see who exactly is bidding, and also what they have bid on in the past.

I guess bid was the wrong word to use. If they're flying out the door at $50/ea and no one can keep them in stock, someone's going to raise the price, others follow suit. My point is, price is going to fluctuate to match the demand.

 

[MUCHO REEF]

To be very honest, I'm shocked to see all the misinformation that so many here have been sold and have now accepted and believe to be true.