Vermetid Snail ELIMINATION - In tank Treatments

Not necessarily completely important to this thread as CP concentration for vermatid snails seems to not matter so much, they're pretty easy to eradicate with cp.

Since I did this, the tank has been vermatid and flatworm (well all worm) free since a few days in. However, crypto got into the tank. Since I don't get any die off now when dosing cp as I haven't added anything to the tank I decided to use CP in the display to treat crypto. After an unsuccessful attempt i've purchased the lab equipment necessary to test for CP concentrations in saltwater.

My first test run gave me surprising results. Without any degradation my concentration should be around 44mg/gal concentration. It's closer to 25mg/gal concentration. No wonder crypto treatment was unsuccessful.
 
Last edited:
tkeracer619 said:
Not necessarily completely important to this thread as CP concentration for vermatid snails seems to not matter so much, they're pretty easy to eradicate with cp.

Since I did this, the tank has been vermatid and flatworm (well all worm) free since a few days in. However, crypto got into the tank. Since I don't get any die off now when dosing cp as I haven't added anything to the tank I decided to use CP in the display to treat crypto. After an unsuccessful attempt i've purchased the lab equipment necessary to test for CP concentrations in saltwater.

My first test run gave me surprising results. Without any degradation my concentration should be around 44mg/gal concentration. It's closer to 25mg/gal concentration. No wonder crypto treatment was unsuccessful.
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, how much did your CP testing equipment run ya?
 
ReefKeeper64 said:
Out of curiosity, how much did your CP testing equipment run ya?
Click to expand...

After researching a bunch on measuring CP the requirement that they all came up with was a Spectrophotometer that measures absorbance at 343nm. The only reference I could find regarding measuring in aquariums mentioned very expensive equipment like a Hach DR5000 but I don't think that is necessary. I bought a Milton Roy Spectronic 21D and a set of Quartz Cuvettes. Very old equipment but this one was in mint condition.

I talked with Humblefish after reaching out to Reeffever without any response and he showed me some interesting information regarding this. Apparently if the chloroquine contains metabolite the metabolite will also register at 343 so a different process is required to separate the two components to get an accurate measurement of the active component. So it's better than nothing and probably accurate enough for us but I'm going to investigate further.

Beyond that, something very interesting appears to be happening. I can't actually dose enough CP to get the display to 40mg/gal safely. It appears bacteria is breaking down the CP rapidly. The more I dose, the quicker it breaks down. So fast that I am likely to abort dosing the display, last night I dosed the tank up to 27mg/gal and this morning 12 hours later it was down to 17mg/gal. The 40mg/gal sample from new SW I made on Thursday is still testing out at 40mg/gal.

So while CP probably works well on a freshly started QT and certainly nuked my vermatids and flat worms, it's a stretch that this med can be used in a display tank to treat fish. Obviously every system is different but at least in my case the CP is metabolized and removed at a rate faster than I want to dose CP.
 
Last edited:
tkeracer619 said:
After researching a bunch on measuring CP the requirement that they all came up with was a Spectrophotometer that measures absorbance at 343nm. The only reference I could find regarding measuring in aquariums mentioned very expensive equipment like a Hach DR5000 but I don't think that is necessary. I bought a Milton Roy Spectronic 21D and a set of Quartz Cuvettes. Very old equipment but this one was in mint condition.

I talked with Humblefish after reaching out to Reeffever without any response and he showed me some interesting information regarding this. Apparently if the chloroquine contains metabolite the metabolite will also register at 343 so a different process is required to separate the two components to get an accurate measurement of the active component. So it's better than nothing and probably accurate enough for us but I'm going to investigate further.

Beyond that, something very interesting appears to be happening. I can't actually dose enough CP to get the display to 40mg/gal safely. It appears bacteria is breaking down the CP rapidly. The more I dose, the quicker it breaks down. So fast that I am likely to abort dosing the display, last night I dosed the tank up to 27mg/gal and this morning 12 hours later it was down to 17mg/gal. The 40mg/gal sample from new SW I made on Thursday is still testing out at 40mg/gal.

So while CP probably works well on a freshly started QT and certainly nuked my vermatids and flat worms, it's a stretch that this med can be used in a display tank to treat fish. Obviously every system is different but at least in my case the CP is metabolized and removed at a rate faster than I want to dose CP.
Click to expand...

In a fish only tank with substrate you can tell you need more CP when algae starts to grow again. At that point you add another 1/2 dose of CP and the algae will quickly die back off. It only takes about 2-3 weeks for the CP to diminish naturally like that. I experienced this a couple of years ago by helping a friend who owns an LFS. He wasn't happy the the meds he had been using so we dosed CP in 3 of of his fish only storefront systems. As soon as he started that regimen, his fish loss rate diminished to almost nothing. We figured out more CP was needed by noticing the display went from pristine to where algae started growing again. The algae will tell you what you need to know. This dose method is probably more on the safe side but fish deaths post sale are also way down so we know it works. Customers know this store uses CP and they buy with confidence.

I started my a new build last year by treating with CP in my new tank build. I started it out out as a fish only system for the first 90 days. A powder blue tang and a dozen other fish were the first to go into the DT. At 90 days I stopped the treatment and within a month after that I started adding LPS and soft corals without issue. A year later and I haven't had a single disease problem.

The LFS owner also maintains tanks for customers and has dosed it successfully in a few systems now. With an established system, you start with a 1/4 dose to avoid too much die off at once and any resulting ammonia spike.

These are just some real life experiences. Nothing scientific but it works and is safe. Good luck with your setup. I'm sure you will get to where you want to be soon enough.
 
ReefKeeper64 said:
In a fish only tank with substrate you can tell you need more CP when algae starts to grow again. At that point you add another 1/2 dose of CP and the algae will quickly die back off. It only takes about 2-3 weeks for the CP to diminish naturally like that. I experienced this a couple of years ago by helping a friend who owns an LFS. He wasn't happy the the meds he had been using so we dosed CP in 3 of of his fish only storefront systems. As soon as he started that regimen, his fish loss rate diminished to almost nothing. We figured out more CP was needed by noticing the display went from pristine to where algae started growing again. The algae will tell you what you need to know. This dose method is probably more on the safe side but fish deaths post sale are also way down so we know it works. Customers know this store uses CP and they buy with confidence.

I started my a new build last year by treating with CP in my new tank build. I started it out out as a fish only system for the first 90 days. A powder blue tang and a dozen other fish were the first to go into the DT. At 90 days I stopped the treatment and within a month after that I started adding LPS and soft corals without issue. A year later and I haven't had a single disease problem.

The LFS owner also maintains tanks for customers and has dosed it successfully in a few systems now. With an established system, you start with a 1/4 dose to avoid too much die off at once and any resulting ammonia spike.

These are just some real life experiences. Nothing scientific but it works and is safe. Good luck with your setup. I'm sure you will get to where you want to be soon enough.
Click to expand...

Without knowing the minimum therapeutic dose and when algae returns it's hard to say what works and doesn't work other than things you've experienced. Obviously my test isn't definitive, there are so many variables at play. It is possible that the bacteria that consumes it forms after dosing it and if you went into a system that hadn't been dosed prior it would have been different. You should check out the thread I posted last night that puts CP concentrations against time. For me to keep the 40mg/gal concentration I would have to dose 260 grams of CP over a month just to keep it there if my consumption stayed consistent. The dose to bring the tank up to 40mg/gal is only 26 grams. That is a LOT of cp, not a half dose. Not really willing to test that.
 
tkeracer619 said:
Without knowing the minimum therapeutic dose and when algae returns it's hard to say what works and doesn't work other than things you've experienced. Obviously my test isn't definitive, there are so many variables at play. It is possible that the bacteria that consumes it forms after dosing it and if you went into a system that hadn't been dosed prior it would have been different. You should check out the thread I posted last night that puts CP concentrations against time. For me to keep the 40mg/gal concentration I would have to dose 260 grams of CP over a month just to keep it there if my consumption stayed consistent. The dose to bring the tank up to 40mg/gal is only 26 grams. That is a LOT of cp, not a half dose. Not really willing to test that.
Click to expand...

Oh trust me, I'm not providing advice to you or anyone. I'm sharing what I've experienced and that is all. I can't even say that any fish had a confirmed disease/parasite to begin with. The probability is high but it's not like anyone here is doing a funded tank trials experiment. Then again, perhaps your testing was at that level. I really don't know. The chat was interesting if nothing else.

I don't think you have to "keep" a given concentration at 40mg/gal. It's an initial concentration with a natural breakdown that is what people are using and finding effective over time.

I'll read your post for more details.
 
nice thread..
what about the potassium permanganate?
did anybody tried?
my tank is completely full of these pests
im at the verge of nuking the whole tank
 
I just finished treatment of Reef Flux at double dose in 2 reef tanks with lots of VS. so far I don't see any mucus strings from any VS and I have lots of them in both tanks. Maybe their just mad from the treatment. On other hand if their dead that would be a great benefit. Has anyone with VS tried Reef Flux at double the dose for 2 weeks?
 
These stupid things are really popping up everywhere now. Big ones and tiny ones. Argh! Starting to consider some type of treatment option. There has to be something that gets rid of them... and there must be a predator.

They are more annoying than anything. Don't really bother corals or the fish. But they don't look good, and they cut and poke me. No snails make me bleed my own blood! :0)

Joining this thread to see what has worked for others, short of nuking the tank. Not an option for me.
 
I haven't found anything
That kill them I'm trying to search about potassium permanganate.. As somebody mentioned above.
I'm at the verge to nuke the whole tank. And literally boil the rocks in a large pot
 
Isayso said:
I haven't found anything

That kill them I'm trying to search about potassium permanganate.. As somebody mentioned above.

I'm at the verge to nuke the whole tank. And literally boil the rocks in a large pot
Click to expand...



I'm trying the micro bubbling as a last resort before I tear down and restart. They are a royal PITA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Sitting rocks in sun for a week or so is more than enough. I took some rock out w/ hydroids and VS, sat on the porch for a few weeks, then into QT tank. Haven't seen one since. Hydroids came back on other rocks in the display so now I am completely restarting.

Don't mind so much about the restart since I can go bare bottom but losing 2 yrs of maturity sucks--for me and the mandarins.

Going to fill the tank with fresh water and run for a day or two to get any VS in the overflow/lines/walls.

Interestingly, I don't have one VS in the sump so I was able to move those sponge covered rocks into the QT tank with the mandarins. Still no sign of them on those rocks.
 
Boiling is not a good option for a number of reasons. Instead, consider an acid bath for your rocks. That will literally eat those snails along with the outer layer of each rock. They will be completely gone without any issue.

I read about a laser option as well. High powered (1mW or more) laser will actually cause the snails to cook in their own shells. Has anyone tried this? I assume you have to go from the top and not through the glass... but maybe not?
 
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