Very Large Tank, now with ich
- Thread starter Humongous
- Start date
Humongous, I saw Alprazo's post.
Alprazo, no offense of course, I'm leary about CP killing encysted ick. And at this point really quite paranoid about it. In your experience with your 1 dose/1 month procedure have you ever had a failure?
(I'm convinced that my tank has ick in it now due to a) 72 days fallow not being long enough or b) 3 weeks copper in QT/Hospital did not kill everything because at least one parasite encysted successfully while I was bringing Cupramine dosage up to theraputic level. Unable to to TTM as that would have required more tanks and space than I have for the number of fish I was maintaining. Which is now doubled.)
Alprazo, no offense of course, I'm leary about CP killing encysted ick. And at this point really quite paranoid about it. In your experience with your 1 dose/1 month procedure have you ever had a failure?
(I'm convinced that my tank has ick in it now due to a) 72 days fallow not being long enough or b) 3 weeks copper in QT/Hospital did not kill everything because at least one parasite encysted successfully while I was bringing Cupramine dosage up to theraputic level. Unable to to TTM as that would have required more tanks and space than I have for the number of fish I was maintaining. Which is now doubled.)
I just received the instruction sheet for NLS Ick Shield Solution Powder. It says that it is effective on Tomite and Trophont stages but not Tomonts (encysted) so I continue to not understand how a 30 day application could work if Tomonts can exist up to (and maybe more) than 72 days.
Spar
New member
The Tomite stage is when it is encysted and is splitting. Tomont is a very short stage where it is creating the cyst.
I am not easy to be convinced that there is something that can eat through a Tomite/cyst but not kill a fish. I'd pressure them to disclose some actual research.
Spar
New member
Theronts are what are released from the cyst. I guess you could call the Tomont and Tomite stages the same thing really. Perhaps the Tomont is the process of making the cyst and Tomite is the process of splitting into daughter parasites. Regardless, the time from Tomont formation to Tomite splitting to Theront release is the 3-72 day part.
Deinonych
New member
There are five primary stages for Cryptocaryon:
Trophont - feeding stage on fish
Protomont - intermediary stage that drops off the fish and seeks out substrate for cyst formation
Tomont - encysted stage
Tomite - daughter cells that form within the tomont
Theront - swimming ciliated stage (mature tomite) that actively infects fish
Hope that clears up any confusion.
The following link is probably one of the best summaries of the organism and its life cycle: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
My understanding is that CP only affects the theront stage (and by inference the tomite stage as they transform into theronts upon excystment). There is speculation that CP may affect the protomont stage, but I have not read of any conclusive studies that verify this.
Trophont - feeding stage on fish
Protomont - intermediary stage that drops off the fish and seeks out substrate for cyst formation
Tomont - encysted stage
Tomite - daughter cells that form within the tomont
Theront - swimming ciliated stage (mature tomite) that actively infects fish
Hope that clears up any confusion.
The following link is probably one of the best summaries of the organism and its life cycle: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164My understanding is that CP only affects the theront stage (and by inference the tomite stage as they transform into theronts upon excystment). There is speculation that CP may affect the protomont stage, but I have not read of any conclusive studies that verify this.
jbvdhp
Active member
Very Large Tank, now with ich
Interesting thought.
However, the cyst that survived for 72 days was a cold water species, and it has been suggested, from what I've read, the the average ich that we come across in reef aquaria, at normal temps (I am assuming 75-79 degrees F) leave cyst form no later than 30 days, iirc. I am sure the pros will correct my numbers if I am wrong.
You wanna know what's scary?
I knew about cp from a local buddy/hobbyist who suggested I get it from the same ebay source as he did. He swore it worked for him! It didn't for me, but here's the thing...
Today I went to his house to buy some sps frags and I notice a spot on his PBT fin. Didn't think much, so I asked him about it. He brushed it off, fine. Then I see a CBB that has characteristic ich spots, not raised, but diffuse edged, definitely visible on all clear fins. He said he's had those spots for a year. But I notice bumps on his PBT under the skin along the body at certain spots. To me, that indicates it's possible his cp treatment didn't work as well as he thought.
He used it a year ago. Needless to say, those frags are in qt. Never thought I would ever have to qt coral frags.
Interesting thought.
However, the cyst that survived for 72 days was a cold water species, and it has been suggested, from what I've read, the the average ich that we come across in reef aquaria, at normal temps (I am assuming 75-79 degrees F) leave cyst form no later than 30 days, iirc. I am sure the pros will correct my numbers if I am wrong.
You wanna know what's scary?
I knew about cp from a local buddy/hobbyist who suggested I get it from the same ebay source as he did. He swore it worked for him! It didn't for me, but here's the thing...
Today I went to his house to buy some sps frags and I notice a spot on his PBT fin. Didn't think much, so I asked him about it. He brushed it off, fine. Then I see a CBB that has characteristic ich spots, not raised, but diffuse edged, definitely visible on all clear fins. He said he's had those spots for a year. But I notice bumps on his PBT under the skin along the body at certain spots. To me, that indicates it's possible his cp treatment didn't work as well as he thought.
He used it a year ago. Needless to say, those frags are in qt. Never thought I would ever have to qt coral frags.
Jvbdhp--I'm in near disbelief at how many more and how widespread the pests are now vs 25-15 years ago when I last had tanks. In the 10 years I lost only 2 fish to disease never quarantined unless the fish looked bad never had ick never had aiptasia never had vermetid worms -- hmm did discover a bicolor angel in the claws of a large crab I didn't know I had for 5 years. But you get the idea. I'm not startng again but I'm setting up a ten g qt for coral too
jbvdhp
Active member
Very Large Tank, now with ich
I believe you.
These closed systems: from distributor to wholesaler to LFS... Now, all bad news bears.
My wife thinks I am nuts. I think I am nuts. Coral in a small qt container/tank?!
That's why if i were op, I would be frustrated. A dream tank, 1000+ gallons, and now he's faced with the challenge of eradicating stupid little parasites. Smh. Op, I hope your treatment is a success!!!
I believe you.
These closed systems: from distributor to wholesaler to LFS... Now, all bad news bears.
My wife thinks I am nuts. I think I am nuts. Coral in a small qt container/tank?!
That's why if i were op, I would be frustrated. A dream tank, 1000+ gallons, and now he's faced with the challenge of eradicating stupid little parasites. Smh. Op, I hope your treatment is a success!!!
It is very frustrating indeed especially when you think you have done everything possible to eradicate pests and pathogens. Throw in all that and now my back has been bothering me again so getting in to the tank to remove corals is going to be a literal pain!
My LFS has some the the NLS ick shield food. I'm going to pick some up today and see if the fish have any interest in it at all. I have the powder on order as well. I guess you always have to prepare for the worst case scenario.
jbvdhp,joela7, I agree with your statements. I remember 10 years ago nobody up here where I'm at had really even heard of these bugs and they thought I was wasting time and money by quarantining fish. Over the years several of the LFS shops had entire fish holding systems wiped out by brook or crypto. In fact one shop locally lost everything except for a few very tough fish to Uronema. His vendor asked for the fish back, pictures, they made the diagnosis(they believe is started with Chromis) and credited him the entire order. The only problem is that some of these fish were ordered in for people who wanted them straight into their tanks. Long story short, I still believe in QT and still will practice it. I'll post how the fish like the NLS food.
My LFS has some the the NLS ick shield food. I'm going to pick some up today and see if the fish have any interest in it at all. I have the powder on order as well. I guess you always have to prepare for the worst case scenario.
jbvdhp,joela7, I agree with your statements. I remember 10 years ago nobody up here where I'm at had really even heard of these bugs and they thought I was wasting time and money by quarantining fish. Over the years several of the LFS shops had entire fish holding systems wiped out by brook or crypto. In fact one shop locally lost everything except for a few very tough fish to Uronema. His vendor asked for the fish back, pictures, they made the diagnosis(they believe is started with Chromis) and credited him the entire order. The only problem is that some of these fish were ordered in for people who wanted them straight into their tanks. Long story short, I still believe in QT and still will practice it. I'll post how the fish like the NLS food.
ThRoewer
New member
All those bugs have been always there.
My books from the 70s and 80s have most, if not all of them listed. and described Back in those days people may not have recognized them much for what they were because information sharing was much harder but you usually could see if a fish wasn't looking or behaving right and you just left it at the store. And hardly anyone was doing mail order saltwater fish in those days.
I would see sick fish at dealer and wholesaler tanks and usually refrain from buying them, thus avoiding getting all the nasties into my house and systems.
As far as wholesalers go the least sick fish I found at DeJong Marine Life, a large importer/exporter in the Netherlands. But their system was well thought out to keep infections from spreading: separate tanks for small individual fish, high power UV sterilizers and ozone, and most importantly, all catching nets kept in hot water, containing disinfectants. That doesn't mean they didn't have sick fish - they had and plenty but they tried their best to treat contain diseases, something I can't say about your average LFS. It might be because wholesalers make their money with selling live stock, predominately fish and shrimp, while your local store make the most money on everything else but fish.
In general I don't think the parasites have actually increased that much but rather the awareness about them.
My books from the 70s and 80s have most, if not all of them listed. and described Back in those days people may not have recognized them much for what they were because information sharing was much harder but you usually could see if a fish wasn't looking or behaving right and you just left it at the store. And hardly anyone was doing mail order saltwater fish in those days.
I would see sick fish at dealer and wholesaler tanks and usually refrain from buying them, thus avoiding getting all the nasties into my house and systems.
As far as wholesalers go the least sick fish I found at DeJong Marine Life, a large importer/exporter in the Netherlands. But their system was well thought out to keep infections from spreading: separate tanks for small individual fish, high power UV sterilizers and ozone, and most importantly, all catching nets kept in hot water, containing disinfectants. That doesn't mean they didn't have sick fish - they had and plenty but they tried their best to treat contain diseases, something I can't say about your average LFS. It might be because wholesalers make their money with selling live stock, predominately fish and shrimp, while your local store make the most money on everything else but fish.
In general I don't think the parasites have actually increased that much but rather the awareness about them.
Well I wanted to post a quick update. I ordered in the NLS ick shield pellets. I dropped some in the tank and I've never seen a feeding frenzy response like this. None of them spit it out. I know it's not an instant cure but more of a stop gap approach. I need to watch all of them and see if they all eat the pellets now.
3FordFamily
In Memoriam
Where did you get the pellets?
I haven't seen anything yet other than most of the fish seem to love it. I feed them the medicated pellets and other foods. I don't know how many pellets each fish needs to eat but they are eating. I also ordered regular NLS pellets so that it trains them to go after the pellets more readily.
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