Visualizing the extent of over-fishing

Hardly surprising. The human population of the world in 1900 was 1.6 billion. The world's population was about 1/3 that number 400 years earlier. It took 400 years for the population to go from a half billion to one and a half billion. The current world population is about 7 billion, and increasing geometrically. We are like rats, destroying the rest of the planet's life forms, literally eating our world, digging our grave with our teeth.

Nothing is or can be done because, animals that we are, the instinct to reproduce translates into a belief that we have the right to do so. The belief that the world belongs to us and that we can do with it as we please is almost universal. As a consequence the world is dying. Declining fish populations are only one indicator. There are many, many more. A world of other catastrophies descending on our heads.

When I was in high school the world population was 3 billion. It was a far, far more beautiful place, but every generation accepts the status quo, however miserable, as the norm. It's all we know.
 
For those who haven't seen the graphic...

<a href="http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/tellyFish/?action=view&current=pew_fish_forweb.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/tellyFish/pew_fish_forweb.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
 
Hardly surprising. The human population of the world in 1900 was 1.6 billion. The world's population was about 1/3 that number 400 years earlier. It took 400 years for the population to go from a half billion to one and a half billion. The current world population is about 7 billion, and increasing geometrically. We are like rats, destroying the rest of the planet's life forms, literally eating our world, digging our grave with our teeth.

Great points here.

Few people stop and consider the world population in the 1600-1700s.

The amount of food and **** and **** on this Earth is overwhelming.

Not to sound like a TOTAL downer but you have to realize that if a population flourishes so well that others will be forced to decline.

I believe we are still at the very beginning of the "realization" period where things have to change. I worked on hybrid vehicle technology for a number of years before leaving the field. The technology has been there for years and years and years but it's just not being adopted very quickly.

The same will occur with diminishing natural food stocks etc. It's going to be far too late before we change.

Take your kids to see polar bears ASAP...is what I'm getting at.
 
I'm not surprised I see it every day. I work for a state regulatory agency charged with monitoring population dynamics, life history studies, commercial and recreational harvest of fish,mollusks, and crustaceans. Commercial shrimp harvest were so heavy with bycatch (unwanted species that are discarded) that we took a page from Australia and started buying back commercial shrimp licenses and retiring them. Between that and hurricanes (sinking or destroying a large percentage of the fleet), and the price of fuel some of the trends are reversing in our area. One was growth overfishing where a species is so heavily fished that it becomes advantageous for them to mature at a younger age and size (reproducing earlier) to allow the species to continue. Then not only are we growing food for the whole world but someone has the bright idea to grow energy crops also. Sending massive amounts of nitrogen and phosphorus down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico feeding a huge algae bloom every year that steals the oxygen from the water and the creatures that can't swim or run fast enough to get out. I can think of three species (non-commercial) that I dont see anymore in my collections. My guess is that they couldn.t swim or run fast enough. So after 15 years in a row of ever incresing size and and persistence they ceased to exist. One of the things I have read is that before most ecological collapses in the worlds marine systems due to dead zones they are preceded by explosions in Ctenophore(comb jellies) populations. I have been witnessing it for many years now.

What does it all boil down to. Too many of us adding too many pressures and insults on them. The top predator/food chain pyramid is upside down and we all know what an upside down pyramid does best.
 
Is that really good enough for everyone?

Unfortunately it's good enough for a drastically large percentage of the world, which in turn eradicates the remaining percentages chances of actually doing something about it.

We can't stop tsunamis with sandbags and as much as I hate saying it...that's what is happening by having a few handfuls of people on their zero impact lifestyle. I realize that they are doing what they can but it's just not going to work for the majority of people. Same thing with hybrid vehicles IME. I worked in the industry for a few years and people just aren't ready to adopt it yet. Until every vehicle is a hybrid and the choice is no longer available there will be 100% internal combustion engine vehicles ruling the sales of automobiles. Why? Driving a big *** truck is what people want to do.

The Earth's population was roughly 3 billion just 50 years ago. There were no cars on the road essentially just 100 years ago.

Human consumption has skyrocketed. Our hobbies consume, our lifestyles consume, and no one seems to have a real exit strategy for our mass dependence on things that will not exist forever.

This is a great reminder of how long it took to get where we are and how quickly we are going to resort back to nothing if it continues.

Just 500 years ago the population was estimated to be less than half a million people. Imagine what the world was like...
 
I believe we are still at the very beginning of the "realization" period where things have to change. I worked on hybrid vehicle technology for a number of years before leaving the field. The technology has been there for years and years and years but it's just not being adopted very quickly.

Even this shows the overall concerns. During research during college, there was no question that fuel cells were far superior in every way to all of the alternatives, yet we are heading in the direction of hybrids.

It would be very difficult for anyone to form a economic powerhouse surrounding the technology, which is good for, but makes it back to your point. We are just starting to realize that success needs to be redefined.
 
I'm in a pretty remote location on the planet, 6 degrees north of the equator. we have sport fishing here, available most weekends, with about 5 boats out on the water fishing for big tuna. it used to be that no one ever blanked, now it's very common place to not haul in anything after a day's fishing. the Chinese trawlers are skirting the atoll doing long line fishing, most likely no permit and depleting the livestock in the area. people have just stopped club level fishing here, absolutely unheard of. I think Asia's insatiable appetite for tuna is eradicating the top hunters in the ocean.....even way out here.

I haven't seen a yellow fin in months as well, mostly Ono's and Aku's.

c
 
Human beings as an individual are so smart, how can we be so stupid as a group?

I think Asia's insatiable appetite for tuna is eradicating the top hunters in the ocean.....even way out here.

Maybe it will take a cataclysmic extinction event to prompt people to finally care. The sort of 'you don't appreciate it until you lose it' thing...

So what's the solution? Is it aquaculture? Are breeding programs even possible in large scale? Should we be genetically archiving every species so it would be possible to repopulate in the future? Either after we as humans collectively decide that we care or until mother nature kicks our asses for getting out of control... (Im picturing the Father figure in Ponyo :lol: "an explosion of life to rival the Cambrian age!") Does anyone else see a day when many species will exist only in aquariums?

Global warming is killing the ocean like a slow cancer, while over-fishing is more like a gun shot to the face. :fun2:
How sad is it that utter destruction could be the only outcome...

<a href="http://s1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/tellyFish/?action=view&current=easter_island_01.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z332/tellyFish/easter_island_01.jpg" border="0" alt="Easter Island"></a>
 
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I'm in a pretty remote location on the planet, 6 degrees north of the equator. we have sport fishing here, available most weekends, with about 5 boats out on the water fishing for big tuna. it used to be that no one ever blanked, now it's very common place to not haul in anything after a day's fishing. the Chinese trawlers are skirting the atoll doing long line fishing, most likely no permit and depleting the livestock in the area. people have just stopped club level fishing here, absolutely unheard of. I think Asia's insatiable appetite for tuna is eradicating the top hunters in the ocean.....even way out here.

I haven't seen a yellow fin in months as well, mostly Ono's and Aku's.

c

That is a sad story told from 1st hand perspective..
 
Hmm, why would we expect humans to act different from any other animal? All predators and prey follow each other in endless cycles of boom and bust. Humans are just clever enough to pospone ours until it seems catastrophic. Remember though, it only seems catastrophic if you live through it.
 
An interesting point, Dave. Perhaps there ought to be a higher expectation for human behavior because we are exceedingly clever primates, able to conceptualize consequences and understand the complex and vital connections among life forms. We have sophisticated language systems and are able to store and transmit information, and have the ability to make deductions regarding the future and evaluate data in a systematic manner. There are also aesthetic and ethical dimensions that seem to be exclusively human. We are almost certainly the only life form that has an awareness of our suicidal activities. The continuation of these activities and our willful refusal to confront unpleasant reality is reprehensible in a way not shared by any other life form.

Edgar Lee Masters, a poet and Clarence Darrow's law partner, once compared human life to that of a barnyard chicken's "except that man has been given an angel's brain and sees the ax from the first."
 
An interesting point, Dave. Perhaps there ought to be a higher expectation for human behavior because we are exceedingly clever primates, able to conceptualize consequences and understand the complex and vital connections among life forms. We have sophisticated language systems and are able to store and transmit information, and have the ability to make deductions regarding the future and evaluate data in a systematic manner. There are also aesthetic and ethical dimensions that seem to be exclusively human. We are almost certainly the only life form that has an awareness of our suicidal activities. The continuation of these activities and our willful refusal to confront unpleasant reality is reprehensible in a way not shared by any other life form.

Edgar Lee Masters, a poet and Clarence Darrow's law partner, once compared human life to that of a barnyard chicken's "except that man has been given an angel's brain and sees the ax from the first."

Great points. However, that dosent seem to be enough to make it happen now does it? Perhaps we should remember that it isnt what we can do its what we will do that matters. I aggree with every thing you said accept you forgot to put the most imortant caveat of all as a prefix: Somtimes...If they arent too excited ....

My point is that animals act for rewards. Both positive and negative. As long as the rewards for the activity override the percieved harm then the activity will continue. No amount of hand wringing will affect that. As a human condition, its so well known we even have a name for the situation. "The tragedy of the commons"

At this point in our history we have the ablility to talk about acting the way you described but that doesnt mean we have the capacity as a species to actually act that way.

Perhaps we should examine the reasons we dont rather than lament the fact that we dont. I see much discussion about what we could do if we only had the moral fiber to step up rather than a true sould searching evaluations as to why as a species we havent yet and probably wont.
 
The reasons we don't? Selfish stupidity for starters. In our dumbed down culture science has become a matter of opinion. Responsible restrictions are interpreted as a plot, and politicians are for sale to the highest bidder. As Mark Twain observed over a century ago, "We have the best Congress that money can buy." An effective democracy requires an informed, engaged electorate. Contemplating this reality, repeatedly emphasized by the founders, fills me with despair. I've been a political activist since my undergraduate days, but in the final analysis Twain called it exactly right.
 
My point is that animals act for rewards. Both positive and negative. As long as the rewards for the activity override the percieved harm then the activity will continue. No amount of hand wringing will affect that. As a human condition, its so well known we even have a name for the situation. "The tragedy of the commons"

At this point in our history we have the ablility to talk about acting the way you described but that doesnt mean we have the capacity as a species to actually act that way.

Very well said, it's utopian and unrealistic to think humans are going to change anything before we're deep into the "so late it's crashing down on our heads and I think I'll eat my neighbor" stage. Very few people realize how precarious we're already balanced with all the things we need to survive: oil, water, farmable land, unpolluted resources, etc. One tip in any direction and that's it, it all comes falling down. And fast.

It sounds cynical, but realistically it's already way too late; we've overpopulated beyond earth's means and that population is going to crash at some point. On top of that, doing things that are in humanity's best interests goes against nearly all political and business interests that are never going to let that happen. Just strap in and wait for the coaster to start...
 
The reasons we don't? Selfish stupidity for starters. In our dumbed down culture science has become a matter of opinion. Responsible restrictions are interpreted as a plot, and politicians are for sale to the highest bidder. As Mark Twain observed over a century ago, "We have the best Congress that money can buy." An effective democracy requires an informed, engaged electorate. Contemplating this reality, repeatedly emphasized by the founders, fills me with despair. I've been a political activist since my undergraduate days, but in the final analysis Twain called it exactly right.

Wow ackee, you know the truth but for some reason you fight not to accept it. You find the humans "reprehensible", "selfishly stupid" and our actions fill you with dispair. Yet when we act this way you still expect something different and you are angered when it doesnt happen. Perhaps we would be more effective and happier to boot if we found us all to be amusing dressed up monkeys WHO SOMETIMES IN SPITE OF THAT do the right thing anyway.(long term selfless sacrifice in this instance) I truly believe Mr. Clemmens would have prefered the second description. He loved us inspite of our flaws.

By expecting humans to act righteously intead of acting like the animals they were born to be we allow our selves to label and judge the mistakes of others as moral issues. Why is this bad ? Well, if you accept the reasons for WWII were that Hitler was a bad man and the Nazis were all bad people then you know nothing like forced relocation to concentration camps or medical testing on undesireable members of our society could ever happen in our country . Because we arent bad people right? By making it a moral issue we can ignore all of the other real issues that drove the behavior.

I would submit that over fishing isnt a moral issue. The people who engage in that activity arent "bad" . People who eat the noble tuna arent "bad". Hopefully the Alpha predator (factory long line ships) that lives on the tuna will not recover from the crash that is coming and hopefully the prey will. But to term this as a moral issue wreaks of the emo "dumbed down opinion driven culture" that so many who would seek changes love to disparage.

I would suggest the base cause of over fishing isnt stupidity or moral weakness but instead it is the result of our evolution as a tribal species , our effectiveness as a predator, all combined with the unbridled expansion of mankind. I would suggest that we truly examine our consumer driven culture that measured success not in profits but in profit growth. Until we are willing to deal with the consequences of a society that isnt in a state of constant expansion , we will be unable to address the environmental issues that mankind seems to be driving. I would also suggest that we are no more able to do this than a vat of yeast is able to stop eating sugar before they poison themselves in the wine.

This isnt a flame Ackee. I agree that its in our best interest to find a solution for over fishing. I just dont think the most effective path to a solution is iluminated by torches labeled "stupid" and "selfish"
 
I understand that your reply is not in any way a 'flame' or whatever the technobabble term for being critical may be. In any case, I'm not sensitive in the least. It amuses me when people take personal offence regarding things like having their opinions called idiotic. Who cares?

Samuel Clemens had a very low opinion of humanity. He was absolutely correct, of course. His primary weapon was scorn and satire. He felt sorry for those victimized by the powerful, but always understood that these victims would be just as evil had they the opportunity.

I had much, much more than overfishing in mind when I mentioned greed and stupidity. Having taught history and historical perspective through the use of literature for 30 years has given me some modest background in several of the issues you raise. I hope you understand that the expansionist imperative is an integral, fundamental and indispensable element in any capitalist economic system. Without expansion investment profits are impossible. Interest payments depend on expansion. That is one of the contradictions that critics of capitalism like Marx pointed out 150 years ago. David Ricardo, an extremely influential early 19th Century British economist also had much to say on this topic. This is not a political analysis. It's strictly economic. Why do you think there is such despair when the economic growth rate is only one or two percent? Lack of expansion will bring down the whole economy.

WW2 was not fought because of the murderous policies of the Nazis. That is absolutely false. The war was fought over issues of power and global control. Some of the modern world's earliest concentration camps were established by the British in South Africa. We here in the US had a few into which those Indians who had unreasonable objections to having their land stolen were placed. Then there were the camps for American citizens of Japanese ancestry during WW2. It has recenly been admitted that the US intentionally infected Central Americans with venereal diseases to test various medicines, and the infamous Tuskeegee experiments during which the government intentionally withheld medical treatment and forbade doctors from treating those unknowingly involved in the experiment is well documented. There are some wild-eyed extremists today who think that forcing impoverished seniors to choose between medicine and food is immoral and barbaric.

Certainly, our WW2 ally, the Soviets, killed more innocents than the Nazis ever dreamed of, and shifted far more populations than anyone, though our hands are not very clean in that respect. Where are the Massachusetts? The Connecticuts? The Lenape? The Chickasaw? Nations of patriots returned to their earth, buried, killed to make room for Europeans. Or forcibly evicted, as the Cherokee on their Trail of Tears. We have much to be ashamed of. To maintain that WW2 was fought for any reasons of morality is absurd, and no flame intended. I find it incredible that this country ever had the nerve to take a moral stand on any issue when legal segregation existed until 1964, slavery until 1864. I am old enough to have witnessed segregated restaurants and rest rooms, to have been physically attacked as I marched against these vile American institutions as a teenager. Our moral positions frequently reek of hypocrisy. Ask Latin Americans about American morality. But enough of this.

Some of what you describe can be subsumed under the general heading of sociobiology. I have no doubt that there is much validity in the concept that our behaviors as a species are programmed by survival mechanisms that evolved at the dawn of the human race. Biology is not destiny, however. We have the capacity to rise above such things as the impulse to take what we want from those weaker than us, perhaps hitting them in the head with a rock to facilitate the process. Laws and religions exist to try to force us to resist these impulses. These persuasive measures tend to be less effective when applied to large groups and nations of people, who frequently decide that God is on their side.

I'm a great believer in the dictum that honey catches more flys than vinegar. Still, there is abundant evidence that we have a great deal in common with such winged vermin. This is not negativism. It's an accurate assessment of reality.
 
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Ackee, Thanks for the reply, You have kinda made my point. It seems we agree humans are animals. I am impressed when we aspire to be more. The rest of the time, its just people being monkeys as they are wont to do.
 
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