Vodka dosing and a monoculture

rhinonm

rhinonm

New member
I started vodka dosing about 6 months ago and stopped a couple of months ago because of the effects I saw on my bta. It shrunk to about half its size lost all its color and is now dead.

Fortunately that was the only negative effect of the dosing. My sps loved it and produced some awesome colrs; my tank was never cleaner. Since the anemone is no longer a question i would like to start dosing again.

Since stopping the dosing I notice that I still have the stringy bacterial blooms. I am worried that i may have an imbalance of bacteria. What would be a good product to insure a normal bacteria culture when I start to redose?
 
3 things can kill with vodka (or other carbon sources).

The N or P limitation, the fast nutirents removals, or the changes in the bacterial-fungus hosts of the animals...

Commercial prebiotics are based in 2 carbon sources (ethanol and acetate) + aminoacids.
And you add probiotics too, like Biodigest-Prodibio (bacterial strains autotrofics and heterotrophics)

High amounts of ethanol or acetate inhibites the autotrofic nitrification too ...

You must go slowly, without making fast nutrients removals...
and not falling in N or P limitation...

Another method like vodka, or perhaps you can mix with vodka in half doses both...
the method is the calcium acetate (much better than vinegar).

Automatic translation...
http://translate.google.es/translat...thread.php?t=25468&sl=es&tl=en&hl=es&ie=UTF-8

A tank using this method
http://translate.google.es/translat...owthread.php?t=8050&hl=es&ie=UTF8&sl=es&tl=en
 
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excuse me if I didn't fuly grasp your recommendation but I should go slow and use a different carbon base?

I was considering using vodka as a carbon source and a commercial product to replenish bacterial strains.
 
09/11/2004 09:50 AM

Jörg Kokott
Registered Member

Registered: Aug 2002
Location: Bremen, Germany
Occupation: Marine Biologist (M.Sc.)
Posts: 70


Hi,

I can provide you with the dosing recommendations.

DSB tanks react very sensitively on vodka supplementation, thus be careful! If you run a DSB without a skimmer, you should add one to your tank.

Vodka should be supplemented daily during the lighting phase.

You can start with 0.1 mL/100 L for the first three days.
Then you increase the vodka volume to 0.2 mL/100 L for day 4-7.
Subsequently to this initial week you increase the vodka dose by 0.5 mL per total tank volume (this is important, do not dose on a per 100L basis, but on the total tank volume!) every week.

So, e.g. for a 500 L tank:

day 1-3: 0.1 * 5 = 0.5 mL
day 4-7: 0.2 * 5 = 1 mL
2. week (day 8-14): 1 mL + 0.5 mL = 1.5 mL
3. week: 1.5 mL + 0.5 mL = 2 mL.

After these 3 weeks you should recognize changes in the nutrient levels (nitrate, phosphate). If the nutrient levels are still unchanged, you should further increase the dose by 0.5 mL per total tank volume.
As soon as you recognize either nitrate or phosphate to start dropping you shouldn't further increase the vodka volume but watch the nutrient levels, even in the first three weeks.

You should log your nutrient measurements and monitor the nutrient levels on a regular basis (every 3 days).

As Heinz said, skimming is important and you will recognize your skimmer to work much more effectively.

I have posted the dosing recommendation as I fear that people start dosing vodka by using too high volumes
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Dont fall in N or P limitation...
And you must watch what are going to come before it happened...
watching changes on bacterial-fungus hosts in animals...
In corals in the soft fins of the fishes...


per 100L basis

day 1-3 = 0.1 mL
day 4-7=0.2 mL
2. week (day 8-14): 0.2 mL + 0.1 mL = 0.3 mL
3. week: 0.3 mL + 0.1 mL = 0.4 mL.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12852808#post12852808 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rhinonm
I was considering using vodka as a carbon source and a commercial product to replenish bacterial strains.
Click to expand...


I dont believe in the "monoculture" if you arent using a easily biodegradabe carbon source now...
The only what happens is that heterotrophic bacteria are not working at 100%...
autotrophic bacteria is running now in your tank...

when you run a carbon source again you can add

Biodigest (Prodibio)

Repeat... I dont believe in the "monoculture" but if you add bacterial strains it could be good for no raising bad strains (bacterial-fungus) by autocompetence...
 
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vodka dosing requires patience and some understanding of carbon source for bacterial proliferation which can propagate for nutrient reduction and coral nourishment via oligotrophic bacterioplanktonic suspension.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=387754
(not marine bacteria but gives an explanation and support for ethanol enhancing bacteria growth.)

hehehe...

onto to a more easy explanation...

yes, dose vodka carefully and like jk5 mentioned, it is best to use an ethanol and acetate for carbon sources.

as for bacterial monoculture possibility...

it 'is' possible but pretty unlikely.

i dose my tank with the zeovit bacteria every so often to to 'hopefully' ensure that a predominant strain doesnt dominate.

my vodva/vinegar dosing is:

0.5 to 1.0 ml about twice a week. i also dose the same amount of vinegar at the same time. i do not use any amino acid supplementation (not anymore anyway).

this dosing is for a 250g NET adjusted volume tank. not a 180g tank plus a 100g sump plus a 65g refugium. i take into account the live rock displacement and the fact that my 100g sump is only 2/3 full.

i do see a bacterial bloom every so often...so this tells me to just ease back on the vodka and vinegar.

i must note that nutrient reduction on my tank was done very slowly via full bore zeovit method. i wanted to go slow and took a year before i considered my sps tank in phase III (ultra low nutrient environment).

imo and experience, vodka and vinegar is a potent formulation of the commercially available bacteria driven system ideology. thus, one must be careful...very careful and very slow if one decides to use vodka/vinegar for nutrient reduction.
 
i dont have MUCH experience with vodka dosing but a popular method to avoid monoculture is the dose OTHER sources of carbon such as sugar, vinegar. what alot of reefers are doing is dosing BIODIGEST from Prodibio while vodka dosing.
 
Mixed Carbon sources and Bacterial strains are very important. Do not forget amino acids...

I'm starting to believe off the shelf vinegar is a poor carbon source. Other acetate's perform much better, with fewer occurrences of diatom/slime issues.

Search on google or RC the term "VSV" it's a method we've used for sometime and many reefers have adopted it with good success.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12893451#post12893451 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Jk5
Calcium acetate is much better than vinegar...
Click to expand...

Hi Jk,

While based on my experiences I would agree... a simple "test" done by a hobbyist is far from enough evidence to make such a statement. Every tank is unique, and it is impossible to do valid testing in our aquariums... or make a statement about which carbon source is best without knowing the bacteria and environmental factors that play a roll.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12894204#post12894204 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by glassbox-design
Hi Jk,

While based on my experiences I would agree... a simple "test" done by a hobbyist is far from enough evidence to make such a statement. Every tank is unique, and it is impossible to do valid testing in our aquariums... or make a statement about which carbon source is best without knowing the bacteria and environmental factors that play a roll.
Click to expand...

that is why i linked a true scientific study on ethanol affects on increased bacterial growth. yes, it is not on marine bacteria but i also read an article (not a hobby'ists personal log, observations and findings) about the positive effects of ethanol on marine bacteria. i have had computer issues but i'll try and find my vinegar (acetic acid as an acetate source) scientific paper as well.
 
bergzy,

Perhaps I missed something...? My response was not directed towards you. There are literally thousands of studies showing the use of different carbon sources on bacteria... :confused:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12900082#post12900082 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by glassbox-design
bergzy,

Perhaps I missed something...? My response was not directed towards you. There are literally thousands of studies showing the use of different carbon sources on bacteria... :confused:
Click to expand...

oh,

i didnt take offense to your comment at all. i apologize if it seemed that way. i just wanted to note that, imo, it is important 'for me' to try and have some scientific background to how and why things work.

as i get older...and boy, am i getting older, i tend to shy more from anecdotal observational experimental results/claims and slant towards a more solid (hopefully) controlled condition results.
 
Greetings All !


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12900773#post12900773 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by timrandlerv10
... is carbon really a limiting factor in a tank?
Click to expand...
Photosynthetic microorganisms are never carbon limited in a marine aquarium because they can utilize inorganic carbon ... heterotrophic microorganisms may indeed be carbon-limited.


<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12900265#post12900265 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bergzy
... it is important 'for me' to try and have some scientific background to how and why things work. ...
Click to expand...
Hehe ... you are not alone in this my friend ... :lol: ;)



HTH
:thumbsup:
 
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