Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing

I keep my dKH at 10 and both my nitrates stay at barely readable via API and phosphate is 0.02 and have been for the last 4 weeks. Do you recommend that I keep my ALK where it is? My corals seem to be doing well and growing. I haven't heard about the relationship of carbon dosing and ALK. I didn't know what my PH is but my systems have always been on the low side.
 
bif24701 said:
I keep my dKH at 10 and both my nitrates stay at barely readable via API and phosphate is 0.02 and have been for the last 4 weeks. Do you recommend that I keep my ALK where it is? My corals seem to be doing well and growing. I haven't heard about the relationship of carbon dosing and ALK. I didn't know what my PH is but my systems have always been on the low side.
Click to expand...

I have been told and have read running high the 9 alk In ULNS can cause acroporas to RTN.
 
Is there any science behind the belief that higher ALK leads to RTN? I understand that with lower PH increasing ALK will increase calcification in stony coral skeletons.
 
No evidence of RTN from high alk causing rtn of which I am aware. Some report stn on "burnt tips" with 0 PO4 and NO3 but it's anecdotal and reports vary.
I think 10 dkh is fine. 8 is probably fine , maybe even 7. The recommended range is 7 to 11 dkh. Bouncing it around even in those ranges tends to cause some trouble, more towards the low end ,ime and that of others.
NSW is around 7. To keep it above 7 continously a margin of 1 or two dkh is reasonable,ie 8 or 9 Mine runs around 166ppm /9.3 currently and has for a long time. ,it has wroked for me in terms of coral color, growth and health with similar PO4 and N03 levels to yours . Iv'e run it at 200ppm /11dkh without trouble when I added some soda ash along with kalk but prefer to just take ther 9.3 I get with only kalk. Corals suffer when too much nutrient reduction occurs suddenly or when true 0 levels are reached for nitrogen and PO4 or when significant alk shifts occur.


UNLS(ultra low nutreint system) is a meaningless marketing term ,readily adopted by many hobbyist. After all if it's ultra it must be good ;right? It has no precise meaning but the systems that push for the ultra state do seek doulbe 0s which I think is a problem for many tanks. Lot's of folks have bleached out corals or started stn events by pushing PO4 and NO3 too lowor down too quickly. On the other hands ome folks run very nice sp stanks with much higher PO4 and NO3 levels .

The growth process ofcalcifying corals involves taking up PO4 and nitrogen ,calcium and carbonate.They use ATP for energy to move carbonate and calcium to where they need it . ATP is Andenosine triphospahte ( C10H16N5O13andP3) ;note the 5 nitrogen and 3 phosphate. So, deficiencies or excesses in nitrogen or phosphate might cause a scarcity of ATP and difficulty in calcification.Perhaps the idea of low alk is to somehow offset PO4 or nitrogen defficiencies. I'd suspect a defiecieny in N or P can cause many other diffuclties for corals generally. EVen teh so called unlas systems require the addition of many nutrients after striping them out .

I don't think anyone knows what causes stn or rtn;it can be many things.
 
tmz said:
No evidence of RTN from high alk causing rtn of which I am aware. Some report stn on "burnt tips" with 0 PO4 and NO3 but it's anecdotal and reports vary.
I think 10 dkh is fine. 8 is probably fine , maybe even 7. The recommended range is 7 to 11 dkh. Bouncing it around even in those ranges tends to cause some trouble, more towards the low end ,ime and that of others.
NSW is around 7. To keep it above 7 continously a margin of 1 or two dkh is reasonable,ie 8 or 9 Mine runs around 166ppm /9.3 currently and has for a long time. ,it has wroked for me in terms of coral color, growth and health with similar PO4 and N03 levels to yours . Iv'e run it at 200ppm /11dkh without trouble when I added some soda ash along with kalk but prefer to just take ther 9.3 I get with only kalk. Corals suffer when too much nutrient reduction occurs suddenly or when true 0 levels are reached for nitrogen and PO4 or when significant alk shifts occur.


UNLS(ultra low nutreint system) is a meaningless marketing term ,readily adopted by many hobbyist. After all if it's ultra it must be good ;right? It has no precise meaning but the systems that push for the ultra state do seek doulbe 0s which I think is a problem for many tanks. Lot's of folks have bleached out corals or started stn events by pushing PO4 and NO3 too lowor down too quickly. On the other hands ome folks run very nice sp stanks with much higher PO4 and NO3 levels .

The growth process ofcalcifying corals involves taking up PO4 and nitrogen ,calcium and carbonate.They use ATP for energy to move carbonate and calcium to where they need it . ATP is Andenosine triphospahte ( C10H16N5O13andP3) ;note the 5 nitrogen and 3 phosphate. So, deficiencies or excesses in nitrogen or phosphate might cause a scarcity of ATP and difficulty in calcification.Perhaps the idea of low alk is to somehow offset PO4 or nitrogen defficiencies. I'd suspect a defiecieny in N or P can cause many other diffuclties for corals generally. EVen teh so called unlas systems require the addition of many nutrients after striping them out .

I don't think anyone knows what causes stn or rtn;it can be many things.
Click to expand...



I had read that increased ALK improved calcification in stony corals where the PH was lower this is why I keep the ALK higher.
Though my measurable levels of nitrogen and phosphate are low I am sure they are constantly being replaced and taken up by my corals, Cheato, GFO, bacteria, and skimmer. Thus I can't imagine there being any kind of shortage, the idea is that an excess doesn't occur that could drive algae or reduce calcification of coral skeleton. I hope that I can remove the GFO and GAC, have been running them to control nutrients that may be leached from my new dry rock. This system is much more stable than my last. I've planned the build much better and had knowledge from my last system. I started without an RO/DI unit with the last one and that cause so many problem. This time I've got exactly every piece of equipment I need to provide a great environment for SPS from the start. System stability his my goal and carbon dosing is a large part of that. I've since reduce my dosing amounts to 20ml daily or less. Carbon dosing was a miracle for my last system where nutrients had built up for several reason. Once I started carbon dosing the turn around was dramatic. I almost can not believe why everyone isn't doing it. If not for reduction of nitrogen and phosphate, the benefits of color improvement and growth alone should be enough. I also noticed increased populations in sponges and micro fauna, amphapods, copepods, and other plankton that provided food for fish and corals. Water clarity also was a huge improvement, I had never seen my display so clear, I have no idea why but I know for a fact the carbon dosing was responsible.
 
Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing Reply to Thread

Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing Reply to Thread

bif24701 said:
I had read that increased ALK improved calcification in stony corals where the PH was lower this is why I keep the ALK higher.
Though my measurable levels of nitrogen and phosphate are low I am sure they are constantly being replaced and taken up by my corals, Cheato, GFO, bacteria, and skimmer. Thus I can't imagine there being any kind of shortage, the idea is that an excess doesn't occur that could drive algae or reduce calcification of coral skeleton. I hope that I can remove the GFO and GAC, have been running them to control nutrients that may be leached from my new dry rock. This system is much more stable than my last. I've planned the build much better and had knowledge from my last system. I started without an RO/DI unit with the last one and that cause so many problem. This time I've got exactly every piece of equipment I need to provide a great environment for SPS from the start. System stability his my goal and carbon dosing is a large part of that. I've since reduce my dosing amounts to 20ml daily or less. Carbon dosing was a miracle for my last system where nutrients had built up for several reason. Once I started carbon dosing the turn around was dramatic. I almost can not believe why everyone isn't doing it. If not for reduction of nitrogen and phosphate, the benefits of color improvement and growth alone should be enough. I also noticed increased populations in sponges and micro fauna, amphapods, copepods, and other plankton that provided food for fish and corals. Water clarity also was a huge improvement, I had never seen my display so clear, I have no idea why but I know for a fact the carbon dosing was responsible.
Click to expand...

Ok,here is what's going on in my system compared to yours. First, i don't recall where you live but for me...it only hit 60 here so it's still chilly. That being said, most of the time my windows are still shut which means the CO2 in the house air builds up over time. So during this time of year my Ph runs lower, like 7.9-8.0. SO, isn't THAT a form of carbon dosing? Now, i run the air intake to my skimmer to outside air and that helps but i think you still get CO2 from your house air into your system. i don't feel that Ph level is to bad so why worry so much about ALK? Also, why concentrate so much on what one thing can do to a system,(like GFO).
I ran GFO,(Rowaphos), for awhile a long time ago and what i got out of it was...that it's dang expensive. I have not used any form of GFO since i read about LC. I don't even use LC that often. Now my NO3 is undetectable even on low range and that actually has me concerned because my corals do need some of it. I believe that if you use different methods in moderation they can all work together and even complement each other if some fashion.
Now only at the end of my 1st week of vodka dosing so i'm still waiting on the results but, in moderation, i'm dosing vodka as well as other things. First off, i decided though i still use GAC i only use it 1-2 day before a water change. Before the water change,(IF the PO4 level is above .03), i use LC. Then i blow out the LR and change to a fresh 200 micron sock.
I also, dose a kalk/vin mix , 1.5 gals @ night. I use 500ml of vin to 3 TBS of Kalk for a 5 gal mix and i make up 15 gals at a time. If there is any leftover vin then that goes as a carbon food source. Now for Biopellets. In the beginning i used them according to directions which was a HUGE mistake. I added a screen onto the bottom of a 2 little fishes phosban reactor and only added a TINY amount. less than an ounce. After 2 days i noticed all the corals both sps and lps react positively.
I think striving to maintain zero levels of No3 and PO4 is a mistake. What i'm trying to make a point of is that i think we get to fixated on one or two things and fail to see the big picture. Think of your system as a jigsaw puzzle.
To much of one piece and the rest won't be able to fit in.
So now, i think of the forms of carbon dosing that's going into my tank. CO2 built up from a partially closed area. Any excess vin from kalk dosing. A small amount from limited use of BP and NOW vodka. The only source that i really won't be able to control is the house CO2 that exits when i open the windows for the summer. Then my Ph will go up.
However, what i'm seeing ATM is a lower BUT stable ALK. Right around 7.7. I think the Bac population and the carbon input are balancing out. The Ph is staying between 7.94-8.0 for the most part.
As far as feeding. I think i feed moderately hvy. Even though i still have mainly sps and lps corals atm and just ONE fish. I feed a great variety of foods too. I realize there is PO4 that prob leaches out from the rocks. I'm not overly concerned about it. The LC i use cleans it up nicely and when i use a power head to blow out the LR i take my time. If you go slow you'll pass over a "honeyhole" of junk inside the LR and your filter sock takes it out.
So, as i look at it now, i see all these different aspects working together in moderation to help balance input and output. So far, my Alk and Ph are more stable and if i do see the Alk dipping low which it very slowly has been since using vodka, i hit it with 50 or 100 ML of Soda Ash solution and that tweeks it just right. I've only had to do that once since i started vodka dosing.
Now that my PO4 is better managed i noticed more growth, better calcification dispite the lower Ph. My Ca has been staying between 440-50. The skimmate is thicker. I do think that THIS is only part of the puzzle though. The others, placement and flow for example. I found that despite all these good things there are 3 frags that are proving to be a problem. Color and calcification are not the issues but PE is. Despite all the things i'm doing i do believe it was flow and placement because now i finally see some PE out of them. I guess the point i'm trying to make is not to place to much faith in any ONE method of carbon dosing and PO4 reduction because it might just be a combination of methods in moderation that work better together. Least for my system it seems to be working...so far :)
 
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S2minute said:
Ok,here is what's going on in my system compared to yours. First, i don't recall where you live but for me...it only hit 60 here so it's still chilly. That being said, most of the time my windows are still shut which means the CO2 in the house air builds up over time. So during this time of year my Ph runs lower, like 7.9-8.0. SO, isn't THAT a form of carbon dosing? Now, i run the air intake to my skimmer to outside air and that helps but i think you still get CO2 from your house air into your system. i don't feel that Ph level is to bad so why worry so much about ALK? Also, why concentrate so much on what one thing can do to a system,(like GFO).
I ran GFO,(Rowaphos), for awhile a long time ago and what i got out of it was...that it's dang expensive. I have not used any form of GFO since i read about LC. I don't even use LC that often. Now my NO3 is undetectable even on low range and that actually has me concerned because my corals do need some of it. I believe that if you use different methods in moderation they can all work together and even complement each other if some fashion.
Now only at the end of my 1st week of vodka dosing so i'm still waiting on the results but, in moderation, i'm dosing vodka as well as other things. First off, i decided though i still use GAC i only use it 1-2 day before a water change. Before the water change,(IF the PO4 level is above .03), i use LC. Then i blow out the LR and change to a fresh 200 micron sock.
I also, dose a kalk/vin mix , 1.5 gals @ night. I use 500ml of vin to 3 TBS of Kalk for a 5 gal mix and i make up 15 gals at a time. If there is any leftover vin then that goes as a carbon food source. Now for Biopellets. In the beginning i used them according to directions which was a HUGE mistake. I added a screen onto the bottom of a 2 little fishes phosban reactor and only added a TINY amount. less than an ounce. After 2 days i noticed all the corals both sps and lps react positively.
I think striving to maintain zero levels of No3 and PO4 is a mistake. What i'm trying to make a point of is that i think we get to fixated on one or two things and fail to see the big picture. Think of your system as a jigsaw puzzle.
To much of one piece and the rest won't be able to fit in.
So now, i think of the forms of carbon dosing that's going into my tank. CO2 built up from a partially closed area. Any excess vin from kalk dosing. A small amount from limited use of BP and NOW vodka. The only source that i really won't be able to control is the house CO2 that exits when i open the windows for the summer. Then my Ph will go up.
However, what i'm seeing ATM is a lower BUT stable ALK. Right around 7.7. I think the Bac population and the carbon input are balancing out. The Ph is staying between 7.94-8.0 for the most part.
As far as feeding. I think i feed moderately hvy. Even though i still have mainly sps and lps corals atm and just ONE fish. I feed a great variety of foods too. I realize there is PO4 that prob leaches out from the rocks. I'm not overly concerned about it. The LC i use cleans it up nicely and when i use a power head to blow out the LR i take my time. If you go slow you'll pass over a "honeyhole" of junk inside the LR and your filter sock takes it out.
So, as i look at it now, i see all these different aspects working together in moderation to help balance input and output. So far, my Alk and Ph are more stable and if i do see the Alk dipping low which it very slowly has been since using vodka, i hit it with 50 or 100 ML of Soda Ash solution and that tweeks it just right. I've only had to do that once since i started vodka dosing.
Now that my PO4 is better managed i noticed more growth, better calcification dispite the lower Ph. My Ca has been staying between 440-50. The skimmate is thicker. I do think that THIS is only part of the puzzle though. The others, placement and flow for example. I found that despite all these good things there are 3 frags that are proving to be a problem. Color and calcification are not the issues but PE is. Despite all the things i'm doing i do believe it was flow and placement because now i finally see some PE out of them. I guess the point i'm trying to make is not to place to much faith in any ONE method of carbon dosing and PO4 reduction because it might just be a combination of methods in moderation that work better together. Least for my system it seems to be working...so far :)
Click to expand...


I agree, there are many control measures and systems to support a good reef. I use as many as possible; high flow, fuge with LR sand bed and Cheato, good skimming, GAC, GFO, over flow surface skimming, filter socks, good LR, and vinegar dosing. My preciousness system had all of these except vinegar dosing for the first two years. I testify that vinegar dosing was the difference from a reef that was getting by to one that thrived. It's more than just NO3 and PO4 control. My goal isn't zero of either but that about where they happen to be now. I'm sure once my system is fully stocked that will be different. My goal right now is control and balance. I don't have specific number just ones that work for my system Once I'm satisfied the dry rock have given up the PO4 it's holding I'm taking the GFO offline to curb cost. The GAC I'll leave, I think it's needed due to all the pollutants in the air in my house hold from cleaning sprays to perfume.
 
A few things for calification:

Corals take up bicarbonate( HCO3) ,they need to reduce it to CO3 to make CaCO3 ,calcium carbonate , skeletal mass. Higher ph makes this easier since they have to squeeze out a proton H+ in the process and it's easier to do so when pH is at higher levels with less H+ in the water. Many can and do run nice sps tanks with pH hitting low points of 7.8 though so the effect may be small in some tanks. Increased alk may make this a bit easier as at higher alk the proportion of carbonate (CO3) to bicarbonate HCO3 is greater and the overall amount of of available carbonate alkainity is higher.

CO2 is not the same as carbon dosing. CO2 makes the water more acidic increasing the amount of H+. It is used by photosynthetc ,(autotrophic) organisms to make organic carbon for energy but not by hetertrophic organisms which can't capture the energy from light to make organic carbon. the get there energy from the bond in organic carbon . The bacteria encouraged by orgnanic carbon dosing are heterotrophic. They have no use for CO2 and do produce some as they degrade the organics. That's why organic carbon dosing also causes a Ph drop.

Any vinegar dosed will carry all of the organic carbon into the tank; noit just left overs when mixed with kalk. The H+ from the vinegar is neutralized by the kalk but the organic carbon(acetate) moves into the tank at full strength, just as if it were dosed directly.

GAC is a very good organics reducer and very helpful when dosing organic C ,ime.

Lanthanum chloride is cheaper than gfo but risky. Many reports of dying fish and clams and damage to corals. It needs to be dosed very slowly and highly filtered. There are several detailed long thereads on it's use. Study carefully before you consider it . Gfo is pricier but can be regenerated for considerable savings.

Zero PO4 and Zero nitogen are not healthy goals ,imo.


I also use redundant systems. Caheto, crytic refugia , sandbeds, vodka and vinegar dosing, gac, heavy skimming and gfo if and when I need it. I no longer use lanthaum chloride except for curing new rock leaching PO4 but not in my live tanks.
I also use only calcium hydroxide for alk and calcium, it raises pH and meets the needs of my system packed with sps for calcium and alk. I also use a CO2 scrubber attached to the skimmer intake to bump pH. Alk is 166 ppm /9.3 dkh , pH 8.15 to 8.35 daily swing ,calcium 470ppm , magnesium 1450ppm.SG 1.027. Excellent color and growth for a wide variety of sps, lps, some softies, zanthidae and some lps including sponges. for the last 5 plus years.
 
Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing Reply to Thread

Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing Reply to Thread

"I also use redundant systems. Caheto, crytic refugia , sandbeds, vodka and vinegar dosing, gac, heavy skimming and gfo if and when I need it. I no longer use lanthaum chloride except for curing new rock leaching PO4 but not in my live tanks.
I also use only calcium hydroxide for alk and calcium, it raises pH and meets the needs of my system packed with sps for calcium and alk. I also use a CO2 scrubber attached to the skimmer intake to bump pH. Alk is 166 ppm /9.3 dkh , pH 8.15 to 8.35 daily swing ,calcium 470ppm , magnesium 1450ppm.SG 1.027. Excellent color and growth for a wide variety of sps, lps, some softies, zanthidae and some lps including sponges. for the last 5 plus years. "

Tom, Yes, i'm very careful when i dose LC. I use a 5 gal bucket as a contact chamber and a 10 micron filter sock. Plus i drip one drop every 4-5 seconds so it takes all night to empty 1 liter. You don't mix your kalk with vin? Do you dose the kalk only at night or 24/7? Also, why do you keep your SG @ 1.027? That's not stressful on the life? Can you explain your co2 scrubber and how it's attached to the skimmer please?
 
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You don't mix your kalk with vin?

That's discussed thoroughly eariler in this thread.I dose the vinegar separately not in the limewater. I dose fully satruated limewater; donn't need to augment the saturation levele and don't want to mess it's self purifying features by lowering it's pH. It 's just easier to keep them separate ,ime.


Do you dose the kalk only at night or 24/7?

24/7 from a still reservoir. 150 evenly spaced increments adding up to top off needs in the 24 hour period.

Also, why do you keep your SG @ 1.027? That's not stressful on the life?

No not at all ;the nsw average is 1.0264 sg ;some areas like the Red Sea are much higher. I keep it 1.026/7 ;sometimes it reads out 1.027 as it was yesterday .
 
Thanks tom. I added to the post late but, would you explain your CO2 scrubber and how it's attached to your skimmer please?
 
I made a vinegar dripped I use to dose. I use this because the PH swings from dumping in my dose caused my Duncan to close up. It's adjustable and could be used for other applications as well.

Parts:
1 baby bottle w/nipple (silicone preferred)
2'~ aquarium tubing
1 aquarium air line gang valve

Build:
Take the baby bottle install nipple, take the airline tubing and force it into the hole in the nipple. You need to make sure your nipple has one hole (some could have up to three holes). It maybe be necessary to enlarge the hole (not preferred), if you do use a sharp knife and make a very small cut to enlarge the hole. This could ruin the nipple for the project so I suggest trying very hard to force the tube in the hole as is, also ensures a tight fit. I didn't have much of a problem with this as I use a bit of dawn and it slipped right on.

Next you need to drill a small hole in the top of the bottle to let in air.

Install the gate valve to end of tubing and use a short tube to make a U tube down into the sump. This allows you to count the drips.

That's it. Now all you need to do is use a plug or a screw and install finger tight into the hole on top of bottle so you dose doesn't leak out when filling.

Fill bottle.

Now you need a way to keep the bottle high and inverted to let the dose flow out. I just used two 3" screws and wedge the bottle in. The heads of the screws secure the bottle.

Now you just need to set your flow on the gate valve. I set mine to ~ 1 drop every 2-5 seconds.

That's it!

http://youtu.be/Y97QFJtFwSA



ymyqu5y6.jpg


e5amyny4.jpg
 
Any e else have there sps color lighten up to much or get pale from carbon dosing? Some of the darker corals look butter but the lighter corals not so much. Anyway to stop this from happening?
 
bif24701 said:
Nutrients maybe to low. What are your parameters?
Click to expand...

They r definitely low. Nitrate red sea test kit 0.0. Phosphate hanna ultra low test kit .006.. I don't normally dose carbon. But I noticed some age start showing up so I started to kill off algea.
 
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