Vodka, vinegar,biopellets and other organic carbon dosing
- Thread starter tmz
- Start date
Hey Tom,...question for you. I just beat the GHA I had from my rock leaching PO4 using LC. Now I'm getting some clear very fine string like growth,...almost looks like GHA(very fine) but no color. I found this thread hear on RC that appears to be like what is growing.> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23095520#post23095520 I'm dosing vinegar, using GFO and GAC,...the summery of the thread seems to be to stop/cut back the use these. I'm going to eliminate one at a time to see if I get any stoppage of the growth. Maybe the vinegar is fueling it? Have you ran across this before, or do you have any other suggestions I should look at ? Thanks,---Rick
Aquarist007
New member
From my previous post:
About 2.5 ozs of frozen foods, (mysis, brine, bloodworm, cyclopeeze or nutrimar ova or cylcops for small stuff; broadcast feeding every day split into two feedings. Plus some extra PE mysis for the seahorses once a day. Plus 3x per week they get some nori , Prime Reef flake,spirulina flake, and krill. Once in while, I add a little coral frenzy.
Amminos will add nitrogen without phosphate. Food adds both and some organic C whether uneaten food degrades (ammonia/nitrite, nitrate) or is expelled after being eaten as solid waste, urea or respired ammonia. While I don't know the specific C:N
ratios for various foods,en masse .they should approximate the Redfield ratio 116C: 16N : 1P.
The first objective when dosing organic C( carbon) is to proliferate bacteria in the aquarium that will take up inorganic nitrogen(N) and inorganic phosphate(Pi) commonly referred to as NO3/ nitrate and PO4/orthophosphate).
Hi Tom,
a question for You that arise from a recent experience.
I'm cycling a new tank, 1200 liter net volume, which actually contains only LR, pumps and skimmer. There is no light yet and no fish, coral or other invertebrate.
When I put LR in the tank, after they cycled for 3 weeks in a separate tank with a skimmer, the water had NO3 0,5ppm and PO4 0,1ppm
I added a reactor with NBP and on day 2 I had a bacterial bloom. I couldn't understand why so low values of inorganics (at least NO3) could allow a so quick and large bacterial proliferation. BTW I reduced NBP to 1 cup (about 100ml). After 2 days water came back nearly, but not totally, clear.
Slowly NO3 lowered to 0,1ppm, PO4 remained 0,1ppm.
Thinking there was a nitrogen limitation that didn't allowed for further consumption of phosphate, I added 2,5ppm nitrate, using NaNO3.
I measured NO3 on alternate days for 2 weeks and NO3 remained invariably 2,5ppm, without any reduction.
I've always thought that heterotrophic bacteria use inorganics NO3 and PO4 to grow, so I opened this topic to get some help:
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2443286
It seems to come out that this bacteria don't use inorganics. I can't face this fact I strongly believed for years.
Effectively facts seem to support this thesis:
I had a bacterial bloom while nitrate were already low (I guess LR leak lot of organic matter that fueled bacteria).
Bacteria continued to grow (demonstrated by the slightly cloudy water) but NO3 and PO4 didn't decrease.
Some days ago I removed NBP. After 3 days water has come back perfectly clear, and skimmer can't remove anything from water now, demonstrating that bacteria were actively proliferating, without the use of NO3 and PO4.
I think the absence of light makes this trial even more interesting and better understood, because avoid the confounding factor light could have been.
What do you think about?
Luca
My response from the other thread
This study gives an overview ,which was very helpful to me, of 3 major nitrogen pathways including: photoatuotrophic removal via photsynthetic activity: chemoautrotrophic activity by ammonia oxidizing bacteria producing nitrate and the activity of facultative heterotrophic bacteria supported with organic carbon. Though these pathways can occur in combination, the effects of icreasing organic carbon content does likely reduce the level of activity by the other two.
The paper asserts the facultative heterotrophs take ammonia directly and may out compete the ammonia oxidizers as the former grow about 5 times as fast. It doesn't deal with ammanox bacteria though but those obligate anaerobes are about 14 times slower in growth than the oxidizers ,conditions which make it unlikely ,IMO, that they play any significant role in a typical reef tank.
http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/IS...%20Ebeling.pdf
Also ,Wikepedia notes most denitrifying bacteria are facultative, btw.
Nitrate reduction can take months when organic carbon dosing is started per many anecdotal reports . Maybe the bacteria take the N out at the front end of the process using the ammonia which cuts down the nitrate production to a point where they need to use a bit more energy to get at the N in the nitrate and/ or maybe anaerobic activity activity of the chemoautotrophic bacteria removes it eventually.
In a relatively new tank (3 weeks) there is likely plenty of nitrogen and soluble reactive phoahate from continuing degradation of organic material in the rock and/or from equilibration with the water of phosphate loosely bound to rock and substrate surfaces.
The biopellets add an unknown unmeasureable amount of organic carbon which would fuel the bacterial blooms noted with enough dissolved nitrogen( ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, et alia) and soluble reactive phosphate(inorganic and bioavailalbe organic phosphate) available.
This study gives an overview ,which was very helpful to me, of 3 major nitrogen pathways including: photoatuotrophic removal via photsynthetic activity: chemoautrotrophic activity by ammonia oxidizing bacteria producing nitrate and the activity of facultative heterotrophic bacteria supported with organic carbon. Though these pathways can occur in combination, the effects of icreasing organic carbon content does likely reduce the level of activity by the other two.
The paper asserts the facultative heterotrophs take ammonia directly and may out compete the ammonia oxidizers as the former grow about 5 times as fast. It doesn't deal with ammanox bacteria though but those obligate anaerobes are about 14 times slower in growth than the oxidizers ,conditions which make it unlikely ,IMO, that they play any significant role in a typical reef tank.
http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ista/IS...%20Ebeling.pdf
Also ,Wikepedia notes most denitrifying bacteria are facultative, btw.
Nitrate reduction can take months when organic carbon dosing is started per many anecdotal reports . Maybe the bacteria take the N out at the front end of the process using the ammonia which cuts down the nitrate production to a point where they need to use a bit more energy to get at the N in the nitrate and/ or maybe anaerobic activity activity of the chemoautotrophic bacteria removes it eventually.
In a relatively new tank (3 weeks) there is likely plenty of nitrogen and soluble reactive phoahate from continuing degradation of organic material in the rock and/or from equilibration with the water of phosphate loosely bound to rock and substrate surfaces.
The biopellets add an unknown unmeasureable amount of organic carbon which would fuel the bacterial blooms noted with enough dissolved nitrogen( ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, et alia) and soluble reactive phosphate(inorganic and bioavailalbe organic phosphate) available.
Aquarist007
New member
Thanks for resposting Tom.
I am skeptical however that polymorphs could break down and release enough carbon in two days to cause a bacterial bloom.
I could see that occurring if you overdosed vinegar and or vodka
I am skeptical however that polymorphs could break down and release enough carbon in two days to cause a bacterial bloom.
I could see that occurring if you overdosed vinegar and or vodka
Aquarist007
New member
I don't know if this has been answered on here before but I am curious as to what can be done
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23138806&postcount=43
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=23138806&postcount=43
There have been many posts of occurences of bacterial blooms shortly after starting pellets( if that's what you mean by polymorh) . I haven't found any data on how fast bacteria begin to work on the carbohydrates or whatever part of them escape the reactor to the water. Some say 20 minutes' some say 12 hours or more. I suspect bacterial activity occurs first in the reactor and spreads out to the tank quickly. I don't use pellets though for a number of reason sso. I haven't tested it personally.
Alternatively , some highly miscible organic molecules may leach from the pellets quickly; Luca didn't use a miscible soluble organic like vodka or vinegar but still got a bloom.
Alternatively , some highly miscible organic molecules may leach from the pellets quickly; Luca didn't use a miscible soluble organic like vodka or vinegar but still got a bloom.
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scubadan206
Member
Hey TMZ. ? for you. Do you know any corals that specifically like the bacteria rich water that comes out of the [bio-pellet chamber reaction]. I have my reactor feeding a 20 gal with cheto tumbling in it, then draining into the outlet of my skimmer. I am wondering if I can convert it into some sort of display refugium.
I know some people have what they call a [zenia] refugium. Another idea to add more rock and substrate and use it to house Dragonettes and other inverts that filter-feed. Any thoughts? Thanks.
Daniel. :bigeyes::wildone:
I know some people have what they call a [zenia] refugium. Another idea to add more rock and substrate and use it to house Dragonettes and other inverts that filter-feed. Any thoughts? Thanks.
Daniel. :bigeyes::wildone:
I'd probably try some sponges and maybe gorgonia, might try a few NPS ,dendriphyia for example; maybe non photosynthetic anemones like cerianthus but they'll probably eat small dragonets. Xenia don't seem to benefit from it, IME.My xenia do best in an unskimmed tanks with no organic dosing.
Aquarist007
New member
Aquarist007
New member
Maybe, but I think the bacteria at the top of the cascade in acetogensis, ie those that take carbohydrates to sugars and sugars to ehtanol can bloom too.
]
Me too. zoanthus is another.
Aquarist007
New member
Some useful bacteria is in the reactor and will be dislodged from the biofilm if the flow is strong enough. I would prefer these bacteria find their way into the system rather then get skimmed out
I just changed the line from my refugium to dump directly back into the return area and not the skimmer area for the same reason.
